To be shocked by how blasé alot of MNers are about abortion

[Nothanksloveimfine]

Yes its healthcare, yes free and safe abortion is completely necessary because the alternative doesn't bare thinking about, yes everybody has a right to choose what's best for them and yes I am pro choice (whilst being explicitly pro life with regards to my own pregnancies)

With all that said and done, I am quite alarmed at how a sizable % of MNers are so blase about abortions. Whenever a poster is talking about being pregnant with an unplanned baby and in a less than perfect situation, I see alot of posters urging her to just have a termination like its a routine stroll through the park.

I've just read a heartbreaking article which is being discussed at the minute and some of the replies on that thread are so cold. It made me cry and I'm wondering how the hell people can read that and not be impacted by it, completely steamrolling over the tragic loss of life by saying things like "that's a rare case" abortion is a good thing bla bla bla.

Does anybody else share my view or am I the odd one out?

It's like people are so determined to bang the "right to abort" drum, they have no regard for the babies whatsoever.

Abortion can be totally necessary but it's also pretty sad IMO.

You can care about the mother without being so cold and dismissive of the baby they were carrying.

Caring about the babies doesn't mean I hate women, I am one.

Yes I've name changed because I don't expect this will go down well here.

[quote TalkingCat]@NotthesameNotok A foetus does not feel pain until the third trimester. Until around 26 weeks, they have no nerve receptors and no developed brainstem.[/quote]
Thank you for this information I will research this some more and make sure it’s 100% correct and then I will incorporate that into teaching

I think as most are mother's on here and a proportion are single parents, they advise based on their experience of motherhood / being a single parent. It's hard to be a parent as we all know. if you aren't in a good position in your life then bringing a baby into it isn't the best idea. Not only would a baby be a hardship for the expectant mother, it could also be a not ideal situation for the child to be born into. If both of these things are a worry for you, why bring a baby into a situation like that? I suppose thats where a lot of people's thoughts come from.

I had a miscarriage - my baby stopped developing at 7 weeks. What you have just said is a lie and semantically nonsensical

I’m sorry for your loss but I truly don’t understand how that’s incompatible with what I just said?...

I’m pro choice, but that thread you are referring to made me sad - the blasé responses from posters.
What happened (and has happened more than once) is appalling. That baby was a fully viable human being who died an awful death due to basic scans not being carried out.
I was appalled at some of the responses on that thread

@ButTheyAintSeenUsTogether

I don't know who you think you're paraphrasing there, but I have not seen many people (or indeed anyone) here arguing that a embryo/foetus/baby isn't a living thing. And I've certainly never seen anyone refer to an embryo/foetus/baby in the vile manner that you went on to which I won't repeat.

Posters have said it’s no different to a mole or tumour that needs removing. And on other threads it’s referred to as a parasite.

A mole, tumour or parasite are living things. I've never seen anyone ever refer to an embryo/foetus/baby as Silverswirl went on to refer to them as something you could scrape off your shoe. That's a sick emotive exaggeration aimed at enforcing this idea that people who are pro choice are cold and heartless. Somehow inhuman.

I’ve just googled and a study from 2006 comes up saying preterm infants from 25 weeks can feel pain and that’s the second trimester ?

@NotthesameNotok www.livescience.com/54774-fetal-pain-anesthesia.html

www.factcheck.org/2015/05/does-a-fetus-feel-pain-at-20-weeks/?fbclid=IwAR3ZnbpRU4u7RujXmoxV8nbRjSDhhIgEvtRG2FcOE7SPuqsfCk8Y1w1p_wY

[quote TalkingCat]**@cultkid* I'm saying if you want an abortion you should have good reason to have one for it to be signed off*

That is deeply, deeply and utterly offensive. This is 2022, not the 1800s. A woman doesn't and shouldn't 'need' a reason, let alone a good reason to have it be signed off. All that woman needs, is her HUMAN RIGHTS respected and that she no longer wants be pregnant. A woman does not need any other reason than she has civil basic human rights and does not wish to be pregnant. She owes you and no one else anything. How dare you even suggest she 'needs' a 'good' reason to be signed off for it? Seriously, how absolutely dare you![/quote]
But that’s just your opinion. You are talking someone how dare you for having an opinion.
If someone believes a foetus has a right to life (the same rights as a born baby) then the whole thing shifts. And if someone believes that then that’s their choice and right to express their opinion. It’s not down to you to scorn them.

[quote TalkingCat]@NotthesameNotok www.livescience.com/54774-fetal-pain-anesthesia.html

www.factcheck.org/2015/05/does-a-fetus-feel-pain-at-20-weeks/?fbclid=IwAR3ZnbpRU4u7RujXmoxV8nbRjSDhhIgEvtRG2FcOE7SPuqsfCk8Y1w1p_wY[/quote]
Thanks I will read this

@Silverswirl It's not down to them to scorn a woman who wants an abortion if they think it's not 'justified' in their eyes. No one has the right to judge a woman and block her access to an abortion.

Do they experience pain or not then is there an actual study you can direct me to which says with certainty they do/do not as I will happily read it and am willing to be educated so I can teach facts but if there’s doubt then I will tell them honestly that we don’t know that there is a chance they feel pain

There is so much research regarding this, it isn't hard to find if it is something you genuinely want an evidence based answer on @Nothanksloveimfine

a fetus is likely able to start feeling some semblance of pain around week 23 of pregnancy.

www.fatherly.com/health-science/fetus-feel-pain-in-the-womb/

www.newscientist.com/article/dn19089-24-week-fetuses-cannot-feel-pain/#.UcG--_ZATDQ

You would be better of educating your daughters the only 100% fullproof method of not getting pregnant is avoiding sex, and so they're best of using condoms + another methods of contraception, if they want to be sexually active and minimise the risk of getting pregnant, than scaring and guilt tripping them about abortion.

@ButTheyAintSeenUsTogether

I don't know who you think you're paraphrasing there, but I have not seen many people (or indeed anyone) here arguing that a embryo/foetus/baby isn't a living thing. And I've certainly never seen anyone refer to an embryo/foetus/baby in the vile manner that you went on to which I won't repeat.

Posters have said it’s no different to a mole or tumour that needs removing. And on other threads it’s referred to as a parasite.

Yes, they’re speaking of their own experiences, and the emotional weight (or lack thereof) of them. No one said a fetus is a mole or a tumor, what they said is that their emotional response to their abortion (theirs! Not yours or anyone else’s!) was no more heavy or troubling for them than mole, tumor or wisdom tooth removal would be. And that’s fine. If that wouldn’t be your experience that’s fine too, no one is telling you it has to be, no one is trying to dictate what you should or shouldn’t feel when it comes to what you do with your own pregnancy and body.

Those experiences exist (I had one!) and they’re no more or less valid or worthy of being heard than different ones.

I completely agree. I find it utterly shocking. Posters suggest it in response to an entirely different questions such as; should I tell him I'm having a baby, should we get married, should I wear these two colours together?

Bananas.

I had an abortion and I regret it, I have done every day for twenty years. I know it's the right choice for many but I hate that it's never considered to be the wrong choice.

@TalkingCat So why are foetuses aged between 20 and 26 weeks receiving spinal corrections given painkillers, then?

WARNIG: May be TRIGGERING:

There seems to be a false conflation in general - if it's wrong to force a woman to give birth to a child she doesn't want or cannot have, for some reason, it doesn't automatically make abortion right just because it solves the problem.

Something can be unethical in principle but still solves a personal dilemma.

If a mother sells one child to a passing stranger to feed the others and keep them alive, it has solved the problem. She may be a victim of her circumstances due to culture, birth, economics etc. and is doing the best she knows how. But selling the child can't be described as a right thing to do.

I wonder if this is at the heart of the dehumanising, biological labelling of a human at its various stages of conception - to deflect that argument with talk about the embryos, foetuses and cells.

If a woman has miscarriage in the very first 8 weeks, who ever says 'oh, never mind, it's only an embryo..'

@rhizobium www.spectator.co.uk/article/why-aren-t-aborted-foetuses-given-painkillers-

" If foetuses cannot feel pain before 24 weeks, why are they given painkillers during surgical interventions for spina bifida?

According to an article on the spine-mending procedure, published in the journal Anesthesiology by doctors from the University of California in 2014, foetuses experience ‘stress responses’ as early as 18 weeks. Because there is no cortical activity at this stage, these stress responses are mediated instead in the spinal cord, the brain stem or basal ganglia.

The authors clarify that “these stress responses are different than the multidimensional, subjective phenomenon that we experience as pain” and add that painkillers during foetal operations are used in part to inhibit movement (by 19 weeks, foetuses can reflexively move away from ‘noxious stimuli’).

They conclude: “…it is not known definitively when foetuses can experience pain. Therefore, it seems prudent to provide analgesia during foetal surgical procedures.”

Professor John Wyatt, an ethicist at University College London and a retired consultant neonatologist, summed it up in three words: “the precautionary principle”. He said this principle should be followed when it comes to any intervention that could cause pain from 20 weeks:

“Confusingly, the Department of Health appears to be advising that one set of unborn babies at 20 weeks, those who are undergoing the new surgery, are provided with pain relief, but another set of unborn babies, those who are undergoing a termination of pregnancy, are not provided with pain relief.
“The fact that death is imminent does not remove our ethical obligation to treat pain, even when we cannot be certain if it is present. Terminally ill patients are given the same pain relief when undergoing medical intervention as a patient that is not terminal.”

The precautionary principle in any other context would be completely uncontroversial. When it comes to abortion, however, it is a deeply unsettling acknowledgement that the foetuses we abort may be capable of suffering."

@rhizobium

Do they experience pain or not then is there an actual study you can direct me to which says with certainty they do/do not as I will happily read it and am willing to be educated so I can teach facts but if there’s doubt then I will tell them honestly that we don’t know that there is a chance they feel pain

There is so much research regarding this, it isn't hard to find if it is something you genuinely want an evidence based answer on @Nothanksloveimfine

a fetus is likely able to start feeling some semblance of pain around week 23 of pregnancy.

www.fatherly.com/health-science/fetus-feel-pain-in-the-womb/

www.newscientist.com/article/dn19089-24-week-fetuses-cannot-feel-pain/#.UcG--_ZATDQ

You would be better of educating your daughters the only 100% fullproof method of not getting pregnant is avoiding sex, and so they're best of using condoms + another methods of contraception, if they want to be sexually active and minimise the risk of getting pregnant, than scaring and guilt tripping them about abortion.

There’s no scaring or guilt tripping planned just the facts of fetal development, when they feel Pain and the realities of each type or procedure

I would not want them unprepared and traumatised

I would teach them that just as after childbirth as well as after abortion that hormonal fluctuations can cause feelings of sadness and what they would need to focus on would be the reasons for the decision if they chose to have an abortion and to know the sadness is not necessarily regret but hormonal and would likely pass

They need to be prepared. If it every happened I would fully support them in any way possible with zero judgement

if it's wrong to force a woman to give birth to a child she doesn't want or cannot have, for some reason, it doesn't automatically make abortion right just because it solves the problem.

Something can be unethical in principle but still solves a personal dilemma.

If a mother sells one child to a passing stranger to feed the others and keep them alive, it has solved the problem. She may be a victim of her circumstances due to culture, birth, economics etc. and is doing the best she knows how. But selling the child can't be described as a right thing to do.

You do realise there is a MASSIVE difference between selling a baby and aborting a foetus, right? You're comparing healthcare with what is essentially human trafficking.

A mole, tumour or parasite are living things. I've never seen anyone ever refer to an embryo/foetus/baby as Silverswirl went on to refer to them as something you could scrape off your shoe. That's a sick emotive exaggeration aimed at enforcing this idea that people who are pro choice are cold and heartless. Somehow inhuman.

She also mentioned a boil but you have chosen to not mention that. I’d say that saying it’s no different to a mole, tumour or parasite is emotive. It’s minimising what it is and what it has the potential to be. This isn’t something that has just happened to them, like many tumours for example, they had sex, often irresponsibly and this is what it resulted in. I don’t know anyone that would be so blasé about that.

@stripeyflowers what you're ignoring is the woman (or girl) and her personal choices, wants, needs, decisions.

No one would say to a woman who had experienced a miscarriage of a wanted baby she was carrying by choice to "never mind because it's only an embryo". There is an obvious difference between that and a wanted chosen abortion. You talk about "dehumanising" of embryos/foetuses, but you are taking the actual human woman in question out of the equation. Now that's dehumanising.

*Abortion and miscarriage/ infertility are completely irrelevant to each other. It’s like the difference between having alopecia and choosing to shave your head. You wouldn’t expect a woman who made an informed choice to shave her head to feel sad about the loss of her previously long hair, but you would absolutely support a woman who had alopecia and as a result lost her hair or felt she needed to keep it short. It’s not disrespectful for a woman to feel joy at shaving her head because some women with alopecia or undergoing chemo etc don’t have a choice about keeping their hair long.

Women can feel joy at choosing abortion. They can feel complete relief. They can feel nothing. They can feel sad. There is no right or wrong and everybody’s experience is obviously going to be different. Honestly women can feel whatever the hell they want and make whatever comments or dark jokes etc about it afterwards and that’s absolutely up to them and has nothing to do with the feeling of any other women choosing a termination or not choosing infertility/ miscarriage.

If a woman sees her foetus as nothing but a bunch of cells that’s her prerogative and it’s not for anybody else to tell her it’s a baby. Vegans would see the loss of a cow’s life as tragic whilst a meat-eater wouldn’t give it a second thought. Everybody has their own ethics when it comes to what constitutes a life that should be protected and that’s fine, what’s not fine is to openly judge or try and push your views onto others. If you think a foetus is a life then don’t choose a termination but don’t try and force women who believe it’s nothing more than tissues and cells to take on your view because there is no right/ wrong, it’s all down to personal view and it’s perfectly fine to not feel any sadness or regret after an abortion if that is the individual’s experience.*

Well said!!!!

I will also add some of us are in the camp of minding our own business and letting the person who is pregnant decide for themselves on how they see what is growing in their own bodies.

Pregnancy is not great for many of us and women still die or face life-altering injuries due to pregnancy and childbirth which shouldn’t be ignored nor the cost to women physically, emotionally, mentally, and financially (including cost to career prospects and progression).

[quote 5zeds]@FancyAnOlive is she not allowed to be shocked? Is she not allowed to consider early life “a baby”? Surely there’s room for more than one take on this?

I can tell you I AM shocked that abortion up to birth is allowed in some circumstances. You can see that as judgement or accept that my experience is mine to express or not. Why do you want to silence these female thoughts and experiences? Why must they not be voiced?[/quote]
I ws responding to your summing of what the OP was saying and explaining why I thought it was inaccurate. Of course she's allowed to be shocked. I'm less keen on her using her 'shock' at pro choice women's 'cold and dismissive' attitudes towards their 'babies' to imply that we should all feel sad and guilty etc etc. IMO that is about making other people feel like shit. No idea at all where you get the idea I'm trying to silence anyone. This view seems to get voiced again and again - it's a standard narrative in our culture and one we are all very familiar with. Completely disingenuous to suggest otherwise.

@stripeyflowers

WARNIG: May be TRIGGERING:

There seems to be a false conflation in general - if it's wrong to force a woman to give birth to a child she doesn't want or cannot have, for some reason, it doesn't automatically make abortion right just because it solves the problem.

Something can be unethical in principle but still solves a personal dilemma.

If a mother sells one child to a passing stranger to feed the others and keep them alive, it has solved the problem. She may be a victim of her circumstances due to culture, birth, economics etc. and is doing the best she knows how. But selling the child can't be described as a right thing to do.

I wonder if this is at the heart of the dehumanising, biological labelling of a human at its various stages of conception - to deflect that argument with talk about the embryos, foetuses and cells.

If a woman has miscarriage in the very first 8 weeks, who ever says 'oh, never mind, it's only an embryo..'

It depends whether you see biological reality as dehumanising or not really, I see why people attach more emotive labels to different stages of development in the womb but it doesn't change that during pregnancy it isn't a baby and does pass through different stages. No I wouldn't say to someone it was only an embryo, but similarly they're mourning the loss of what would have developed to and become their baby, not the actual matter they have lost in the first 8 weeks of pregnancy. No less heartbreaking, but if using that argument then not sure how it stacks up.

@ButTheyAintSeenUsTogether

A mole, tumour or parasite are living things. I've never seen anyone ever refer to an embryo/foetus/baby as Silverswirl went on to refer to them as something you could scrape off your shoe. That's a sick emotive exaggeration aimed at enforcing this idea that people who are pro choice are cold and heartless. Somehow inhuman.

She also mentioned a boil but you have chosen to not mention that. I’d say that saying it’s no different to a mole, tumour or parasite is emotive. It’s minimising what it is and what it has the potential to be. This isn’t something that has just happened to them, like many tumours for example, they had sex, often irresponsibly and this is what it resulted in. I don’t know anyone that would be so blasé about that.

It wasn't an active omission to not mention the reference to a boil, just a consequence of rapidly responding.

I think others have already said this, but plenty of women do just view it as a minor procedure that is similar in response to having any other minor medical procedure. That's a valid point of view, and it doesn't make them cold, or conversely emotive, for expressing it that way. It's also not minimising it for other women. No one is saying that every woman should or will see it in that way. It's a response to the claim that women should and do generally feel shame, sadness, regret and so on.

When in fact the general response is relief, according to all the existing research.

@LuckySantangelo35 I don’t think it is morally correct to force anyone to do anything. I don’t think I have the right to enforce my beliefs on others. As such, I think legal, safe, quick abortions are a necessary evil