To be shocked by how blasé alot of MNers are about abortion

[Nothanksloveimfine]

Yes its healthcare, yes free and safe abortion is completely necessary because the alternative doesn't bare thinking about, yes everybody has a right to choose what's best for them and yes I am pro choice (whilst being explicitly pro life with regards to my own pregnancies)

With all that said and done, I am quite alarmed at how a sizable % of MNers are so blase about abortions. Whenever a poster is talking about being pregnant with an unplanned baby and in a less than perfect situation, I see alot of posters urging her to just have a termination like its a routine stroll through the park.

I've just read a heartbreaking article which is being discussed at the minute and some of the replies on that thread are so cold. It made me cry and I'm wondering how the hell people can read that and not be impacted by it, completely steamrolling over the tragic loss of life by saying things like "that's a rare case" abortion is a good thing bla bla bla.

Does anybody else share my view or am I the odd one out?

It's like people are so determined to bang the "right to abort" drum, they have no regard for the babies whatsoever.

Abortion can be totally necessary but it's also pretty sad IMO.

You can care about the mother without being so cold and dismissive of the baby they were carrying.

Caring about the babies doesn't mean I hate women, I am one.

Yes I've name changed because I don't expect this will go down well here.

No, what you’re upset about is your narrative not being dominant or considered the only one of any value.
I think this is true at both “sides”. Realistically all OP has said is she’s surprised so many take a different view to hers and are there any who are more in line with her views. She’s not shaming anyone or trying to promote her way of thinking.

Women can have abortions for a variety of reasons, that they may regret or not.
Women can NOT have abortions for a variety of reasons, that they may regret or not.
Women may feel they are firmly in one camp or another.
Men may feel since the only way they can procreate is if a woman will carry their child to term that they have “a say” in those decisions.

And the world keeps turning.

I agree with you OP.

As someone who was the baby in that situation why do you think it is better for me to have never been born rather than be a little sad

What sort of question is that, @Kennykenkencat If you weren't born you wouldn't know, would you. It's a silly argument.

[quote ldontWanna]@cultkid once again let's turn this around. Should women go to panel to be allowed to keep a pregnancy? After all some women have babies for the wrong reasons or in unsuitable environments.

Should women that are pregnant be told in significant detail everything that could go wrong with being pregnant ,giving birth and raising children? All the worst case scenarios?[/quote]
Come on that's not what I am saying
I'm saying if you want an abortion you should have good reason to have one for it to be signed off

Also, you are basically vetted to be a parent, TBh that's why there are midwives, Health visitors, GPS and nurses involved in your care when you are pregnant: give birth / raise a baby
If there were concerns then it would be sent to Ss for case review wouldn't it?

And I do think that we have to accept that a lot of women do feel sad after and it’s actually just a biological process due to hormones , much like after giving birth and we are up front with information about this so why not abortion ?

Yes a lot of women feel relieved but a lot also feel sad , but not because it is sad in the opinion of some (although I do see why some people have that emotional response to abortion I can totally understand why it is sad) but because of a hormone crash and we need to prepare women for that so they don’t feel sad and then associate that with regret as they are very separate emotions but we need to make sure the facts are out there so women know what they may experience both during and after.

It's like the saying, if my aunt had balls she'd be be my uncle, @Kennykenkencat . It's all specious and a strawman.

@NotthesameNotok since you like stories so much I have one for you.

You're 16. You're pregnant. You live in a time and place where abortion is illegal, and unwed mothers aren't acceptable in society. You're away at school and let's presume the best case scenario where you got pregnant during consensual sex(because I don't have the exact details on that). You start starving yourself so the teachers won't notice your pregnancy. You've heard about back streets abortions but your family can't afford one and even if they did you're too terrified to tell them. You're scared and alone,you have no idea what will happen or when. How all this works. You have no one to talk to. You stop going home for the holidays because it's harder to hide.

It's Christmas 1985. You gave birth two days ago. Alone,scared ,in pain. It didn't go well ,but you're alive and so is the baby. They keep asking you to hold or nurse the baby. You hide under the blankets and refuse to see her, because you can't. Because you know you can't take her home. Because she will stay in that plastic box and she needs to get used to it. You hear her cry sometimes,or hear the nurses talking about her. She doesn't eat much and refusing milk from a spoon, but she doesn't need much anyways due to so many months of her starving too. You're alone,you're scared ,you're in pain. Some of the nurses are kind ,but that hurt even more sometimes. Some are efficient and to the point ,they're actually ok. Some look at you with disgust and judgement and reinforce every single feeling of shame ,guilt and loneliness you have.

Your mum comes because you finally caved and couldn't cope anymore and just needed her. She reinforces the fact that the baby is not going home with you. She tells the nurses trying to convince her that "if we take it home he'll shoot us both."

It's Boxing Day. You pack up and leave with your mum. You're weak and frail and somehow still alone. It will never be talked about. You will say you had a horrible tummy bug and your mum came to pick you up and bring you home to recover. You leave. You haven't seen your daughter. You never will.

The baby is still crying in her plastic box.

Abortion and miscarriage/ infertility are completely irrelevant to each other. It’s like the difference between having alopecia and choosing to shave your head. You wouldn’t expect a woman who made an informed choice to shave her head to feel sad about the loss of her previously long hair, but you would absolutely support a woman who had alopecia and as a result lost her hair or felt she needed to keep it short. It’s not disrespectful for a woman to feel joy at shaving her head because some women with alopecia or undergoing chemo etc don’t have a choice about keeping their hair long.

Women can feel joy at choosing abortion. They can feel complete relief. They can feel nothing. They can feel sad. There is no right or wrong and everybody’s experience is obviously going to be different. Honestly women can feel whatever the hell they want and make whatever comments or dark jokes etc about it afterwards and that’s absolutely up to them and has nothing to do with the feeling of any other women choosing a termination or not choosing infertility/ miscarriage.

If a woman sees her foetus as nothing but a bunch of cells that’s her prerogative and it’s not for anybody else to tell her it’s a baby. Vegans would see the loss of a cow’s life as tragic whilst a meat-eater wouldn’t give it a second thought. Everybody has their own ethics when it comes to what constitutes a life that should be protected and that’s fine, what’s not fine is to openly judge or try and push your views onto others. If you think a foetus is a life then don’t choose a termination but don’t try and force women who believe it’s nothing more than tissues and cells to take on your view because there is no right/ wrong, it’s all down to personal view and it’s perfectly fine to not feel any sadness or regret after an abortion if that is the individual’s experience.

Realistically all OP has said is she’s surprised so many take a different view to hers and are there any who are more in line with her views. She’s not shaming anyone or trying to promote her way of thinking

@5zeds

No - OP has said how 'shocked' she is by how blase people are about abortion and how 'cold and dismissive' of 'the babies' involved people are. Those are value judgements about abortion.

Sorry that story was aimed at OP. Think i tagged the wrong poster. Apologies.

I'm saying if you want an abortion you should have good reason to have one for it to be signed off

But a 'good reason' is subjective, who would decide what is okay and what isn't? The current system is by no means perfect and of course there's room for improvement, but curious as to how either an arbitury list of criteria or someone making the decision on a case by case basis would be better?

@cultkid I'm saying if you want an abortion you should have good reason to have one for it to be signed off

That is deeply, deeply and utterly offensive. This is 2022, not the 1800s. A woman doesn't and shouldn't 'need' a reason, let alone a good reason to have it be signed off. All that woman needs, is her HUMAN RIGHTS respected and that she no longer wants be pregnant. A woman does not need any other reason than she has civil basic human rights and does not wish to be pregnant. She owes you and no one else anything. How dare you even suggest she 'needs' a 'good' reason to be signed off for it? Seriously, how absolutely dare you!

As someone who was the baby in that situation why do you think it is better for me to have never been born rather than be a little sad

Presumably because, looking at the outcomes of many unwanted children, they end up more than just ‘a little sad’. Personally I’m glad my mother had me because she wanted me, not because she was forced to. I can’t envision finding the thought of her being forced to bring anything other than gross tbh.

However, whether it’s better or worse for a pregnancy to be continued and a child born can’t be decided by anyone but the pregnant woman herself. A fetus itself doesn’t have an opinion one way or another, and it’s not for anyone else to project one onto it.

Yes, come on then - what is a "good" reason that also involves consensual sex? Because that's what this is actually about, isn't it.

Because OP so many on here don’t see a foetus as a living thing until it’s passed through a vagina or csection opening.
Until then it’s a totally non living entity. No more alive than a boil waiting to be lanced. A bit of shit that you coupd easily scrape off your shoe.
In real life I don’t know anyone who thinks like this but on here that’s what so many seem to think by the coldness and content of their replies / views.

[quote TalkingCat]**@cultkid* I'm saying if you want an abortion you should have good reason to have one for it to be signed off*

That is deeply, deeply and utterly offensive. This is 2022, not the 1800s. A woman doesn't and shouldn't 'need' a reason, let alone a good reason to have it be signed off. All that woman needs, is her HUMAN RIGHTS respected and that she no longer wants be pregnant. A woman does not need any other reason than she has civil basic human rights and does not wish to be pregnant. She owes you and no one else anything. How dare you even suggest she 'needs' a 'good' reason to be signed off for it? Seriously, how absolutely dare you![/quote]
Agree with you talkingcat, this was a shocking comment. Not wanting to be pregnant is the only reason anyone should need. And what might seem like a 'trivial' reason to an outsider who doesn't have to deal with actually bringing up the baby may well be an absolutely compelling reason to the woman involved.

OP, I agree with you. I absolutely agree with women having the choice and I'm very grateful I didn't have to make that particular decision for myself. Also, pregnancy is a vulnerable time and all sorts of guilt and fears can surface and be influenced by that flood of unfamiliar hormones. You have your lovely baby, OP. I don't think it's helpful for you to think the unthinkable, that you might've listened to randomers.

[quote ldontWanna]@NotthesameNotok since you like stories so much I have one for you.

You're 16. You're pregnant. You live in a time and place where abortion is illegal, and unwed mothers aren't acceptable in society. You're away at school and let's presume the best case scenario where you got pregnant during consensual sex(because I don't have the exact details on that). You start starving yourself so the teachers won't notice your pregnancy. You've heard about back streets abortions but your family can't afford one and even if they did you're too terrified to tell them. You're scared and alone,you have no idea what will happen or when. How all this works. You have no one to talk to. You stop going home for the holidays because it's harder to hide.

It's Christmas 1985. You gave birth two days ago. Alone,scared ,in pain. It didn't go well ,but you're alive and so is the baby. They keep asking you to hold or nurse the baby. You hide under the blankets and refuse to see her, because you can't. Because you know you can't take her home. Because she will stay in that plastic box and she needs to get used to it. You hear her cry sometimes,or hear the nurses talking about her. She doesn't eat much and refusing milk from a spoon, but she doesn't need much anyways due to so many months of her starving too. You're alone,you're scared ,you're in pain. Some of the nurses are kind ,but that hurt even more sometimes. Some are efficient and to the point ,they're actually ok. Some look at you with disgust and judgement and reinforce every single feeling of shame ,guilt and loneliness you have.

Your mum comes because you finally caved and couldn't cope anymore and just needed her. She reinforces the fact that the baby is not going home with you. She tells the nurses trying to convince her that "if we take it home he'll shoot us both."

It's Boxing Day. You pack up and leave with your mum. You're weak and frail and somehow still alone. It will never be talked about. You will say you had a horrible tummy bug and your mum came to pick you up and bring you home to recover. You leave. You haven't seen your daughter. You never will.

The baby is still crying in her plastic box.[/quote]
Here’s a ‘story’ for you seeing as YOU like ‘stories’

Imagine it’s 2000

You’re 18

You’re a victim of severe emotional and physical abuse.

You manage to get a job and a boyfriend and get pregnant because of your abusive upbringing you had no sex education.

You decide to keep the baby

Your mother won’t let you and takes your phone and messages your boyfriend to say it’s over don’t contact me again.
You are forced to write a resignation to your work.
She Locks you in and you have HG and you are not allowed out at all except to the appts arranges for you to have to see a dr/hospital for an abortion. But you’re further along than you realise but she tells you ‘it’s not a baby yet’

You tell the drs what she is doing and they don’t believe you as she says you have emotional difficulties
You tell the nurse and you tell anyone who will listen and nobody helps.

You go one week but run out scared and she beats you when you get home and with kids food so you rebook

You go through with it not realising how traumatic it will be and that by this stage it is a very small but formed baby / fetus

You are traumatised

You are told afterwards how they did the procedure by your mother and she says the baby was ‘thrown in the hospital incinerator like the rest of the rubbish’

Imagine that ?

If that was you you’d want your daughters educated properly wouldn’t you ?
You’d want women to know facts and the truth .
Abortion is a necessary service and should always be available but there needs to be more education around it

@Kennykenkencat Thinking about it more, you could have just as easily been Baby P. Now I think most decent, compassionate, humane people would suggest he was better off not being born than suffering that excruciating pain he suffered in his short miserable painful loveless life.

Come on that's not what I am saying
I'm saying if you want an abortion you should have good reason to have one for it to be signed off

After my last post I don't really have it in me anymore. I'll just say this "I don't want to be pregnant " is a good reason. The only reason needed.

Come on that's not what I am saying
I'm saying if you want an abortion you should have good reason to have one for it to be signed off

Absolutely ludicrous. Shame on you. Here we are. Not pro-life. Forced birth. I’d rather a woman have 10 abortions in a row because she enjoys doing it than one woman be forced to gestate and give birth to a child she does not want.

Or better off in care

So you are pro-choice as long as women feel bad enough about it? Should the men who provided the sperm required for fertilistion also feel terrible after a termination?

There is plenty of glib advice given out on MN, on all sorts on subjects. See the endless LTB threads.

In real life, no one takes a momentous decision lightly just because someone on the internet says so. If a woman finds the decision regarding termination difficult, they are not going to suddenly think it's an easy choice because others do.

I don't believe you can be pro-choice if you are putting these kinds of conditions on it @Nothanksloveimfine

@Nothanksloveimfine

Why do people always want to talk about the people who feel nothing but relief after a termination, and give little thought to the people who do? For some people it is a life changing event that they never move past.

We can't talk about that though, god forbid anybody express regret because it's not inkeeping with the popular MN stance that termination isn't much different to having a mole removed.

Why do you want to focus on people who feel sad after an abortion. The same principle applies. For some people it's a positive thing that has saved them from their life going wrong.

But we can't talk about that because god forbid any woman express relief because it's not in keeping with a certain group of people's views that termination should always result in shame and regret.

I would say, stop focusing on individual women's choices but in the society that allows men to not pay for their children. Or where women who are lone parents are not adequately supported. You may say you agree with this, but your main focus is on berating women for their views.

@FancyAnOlive is she not allowed to be shocked? Is she not allowed to consider early life “a baby”? Surely there’s room for more than one take on this?

I can tell you I AM shocked that abortion up to birth is allowed in some circumstances. You can see that as judgement or accept that my experience is mine to express or not. Why do you want to silence these female thoughts and experiences? Why must they not be voiced?