To be shocked by how blasé alot of MNers are about abortion

[Nothanksloveimfine]

Yes its healthcare, yes free and safe abortion is completely necessary because the alternative doesn't bare thinking about, yes everybody has a right to choose what's best for them and yes I am pro choice (whilst being explicitly pro life with regards to my own pregnancies)

With all that said and done, I am quite alarmed at how a sizable % of MNers are so blase about abortions. Whenever a poster is talking about being pregnant with an unplanned baby and in a less than perfect situation, I see alot of posters urging her to just have a termination like its a routine stroll through the park.

I've just read a heartbreaking article which is being discussed at the minute and some of the replies on that thread are so cold. It made me cry and I'm wondering how the hell people can read that and not be impacted by it, completely steamrolling over the tragic loss of life by saying things like "that's a rare case" abortion is a good thing bla bla bla.

Does anybody else share my view or am I the odd one out?

It's like people are so determined to bang the "right to abort" drum, they have no regard for the babies whatsoever.

Abortion can be totally necessary but it's also pretty sad IMO.

You can care about the mother without being so cold and dismissive of the baby they were carrying.

Caring about the babies doesn't mean I hate women, I am one.

Yes I've name changed because I don't expect this will go down well here.

@GatoradeMeBitch

It will always be an emotive and complex subject. But it's good to hear a variety of opinions. It's also good that we as a society seem to be slowly moving away from what used to be the only narrative which was "I had to abort my baby but I hate myself for it, and on every abortion anniversary and every due date anniversary I whip myself with birch twigs." If someone says their abortion was a happy day I'm not going to tell them they're not allowed to feel that way.

yes this and the fact is a woman can have an abortion , feel terrible about it and regret it for years and years , then years later as her life has changed and shes changed along with it ,, she can look back and not feel those feelings , but feel relief realising actually im glad i didnt keep it . it would have been awful and was most definaltely the wrong time to have ever kept it

There should be not buts, nuances or caveats about a woman’s deciding to have an abortion. Her body, her choice - how it makes “general” you feel should have no bearing on that woman’s choice whatsoever.

There are many more nuances around deciding to bring a child into the world.

Abortion is a necessary service and should always be available but there needs to be more education around it

Yes, the education should be, ‘The vast majority of abortions happen before 12 weeks when the feotus is a cluster of unfeeling cells, it doesn’t have to be traumatising, it does not affect fertility, and there’s no shame in having one.’

@Kennykenkencat

Or better off in care

That's a disaster for most children. A fate worse than being with their parents sometimes.

I find it truly fascinating that the posters on here who regularly post anti-vaccine and COVID-minimising crap are also pro restricting abortions and removing reproductive choices.

[quote BulletTrain]@OchonAgusOchonOh I reserve the right to quote the text where OP started to change the narrative on what she meant, thank you. I didn't want to bother quoting "IMO" because that's not the original message I meant![/quote]
Your point would have been a lot easier to understand if you used the quote where she said it is sad, rather than the one where she said it can be sad. Or equally if you had pointed out she changed the narrative from "is sad" to "can be sad".

@Silverswirl

Because OP so many on here don’t see a foetus as a living thing until it’s passed through a vagina or csection opening. Until then it’s a totally non living entity. No more alive than a boil waiting to be lanced. A bit of shit that you coupd easily scrape off your shoe. In real life I don’t know anyone who thinks like this but on here that’s what so many seem to think by the coldness and content of their replies / views.

I don't know who you think you're paraphrasing there, but I have not seen many people (or indeed anyone) here arguing that a embryo/foetus/baby isn't a living thing. And I've certainly never seen anyone refer to an embryo/foetus/baby in the vile manner that you went on to which I won't repeat.

What you do see women arguing for is that an embryo/foetus/baby isn't yet an autonomous human being with full human rights. That is reserved for a living born foetus. So the human being with human rights, the woman or girl, has full autonomy over her own body and can choose whether or not to continue with a pregnancy.

@5zeds

No, what you’re upset about is your narrative not being dominant or considered the only one of any value. I think this is true at both “sides”. Realistically all OP has said is she’s surprised so many take a different view to hers and are there any who are more in line with her views. She’s not shaming anyone or trying to promote her way of thinking.

Women can have abortions for a variety of reasons, that they may regret or not.
Women can NOT have abortions for a variety of reasons, that they may regret or not.
Women may feel they are firmly in one camp or another.
Men may feel since the only way they can procreate is if a woman will carry their child to term that they have “a say” in those decisions.

And the world keeps turning.

Sure, if you hold both sides to be equal. Personally I don’t think a ‘side’ that restricts women’s voices and their choices is in any way as valid as a side that respects them. One side thinks only one narrative should be accepted, and going further than that, the pro life opinion is that’s it’s preferable for women to risk injury and death in order to access abortion rather than it be legal. The the other side, conversely, thinks women should have access to safe abortion, and that there is space for all opinions and experiences to be shared.

I think this in much the same way that I don’t hold fascism to be equal in value to democracy.

There is certainly a strong element of judgement displayed by OP in this thread towards those that think differently to her, and the fact they have the audacity to say it.

@Silverswirl

Because OP so many on here don’t see a foetus as a living thing until it’s passed through a vagina or csection opening. Until then it’s a totally non living entity. No more alive than a boil waiting to be lanced. A bit of shit that you coupd easily scrape off your shoe. In real life I don’t know anyone who thinks like this but on here that’s what so many seem to think by the coldness and content of their replies / views.

Why does it matter to you what other women feel if they have to have a termination?

If someone requires a termination, and doesn't find it traumatic, what possible consequences are there for you @Silverswirl?

OP, having read the whole thread, three things seem to be true.

No-one gets pregnant on purpose, intending to have a termination. Most women I know who have terminations, either the pregnancy is unplanned or circumstances change significantly in the early weeks - man walks out, threats her etc. Incidentally , terminations in the early weeks do not involve a cognisant baby, and describing it in those terms is unhelpful and unfair.

Women looking for support to make a very difficult decision, do not need emotional weepiness, they need strong calm level-headed support in their moment of anguish. Surely you understand that what people write, and how they feel may be two different things.

Individually, many women feel sad (devastated) to terminate a pregnancy, very few are as cold as you imply, but we are grown-ups, we aren't living in Disney land, a fairy godmother is not coming to the rescue and many have to make tough but responsible choices. Until you are alone in that situation, and nowhere to turn, you have no right to judge.

But yes - as other posters have said, I haven't heard anyone refer to a zygote/embryo/foetus in the way you have described @Silverswirl

@OchonAgusOchonOh Funny, because another poster who had clearly been following the narrative of the OP's posts immediately knew what I meant, so I think my point stands.

@NotthesameNotok sorry that story was aimed at OP . Thank you for sharing yours. I'm hoping deep down it's not based on fact , that poor poor girl. Her circumstances even without the late abortion are horrific.

Your story however also shows lack of choice. The other side of very shitty ,toxic and harmful attitudes towards women/girls and the trauma associated with lack of choice.

I don't know who you think you're paraphrasing there, but I have not seen many people (or indeed anyone) here arguing that a embryo/foetus/baby isn't a living thing. And I've certainly never seen anyone refer to an embryo/foetus/baby in the vile manner that you went on to which I won't repeat.

Posters have said it’s no different to a mole or tumour that needs removing. And on other threads it’s referred to as a parasite.

@Silverswirl

Because OP so many on here don’t see a foetus as a living thing until it’s passed through a vagina or csection opening. Until then it’s a totally non living entity. No more alive than a boil waiting to be lanced. A bit of shit that you coupd easily scrape off your shoe. In real life I don’t know anyone who thinks like this but on here that’s what so many seem to think by the coldness and content of their replies / views.

What a load of vile and emotive crap. I don’t think I’ve EVER seen someone post with the mindset or terminology that you’ve thrown around in your post.

@Ijustreallywantacat

Abortion is a necessary service and should always be available but there needs to be more education around it

Yes, the education should be, ‘The vast majority of abortions happen before 12 weeks when the feotus is a cluster of unfeeling cells, it doesn’t have to be traumatising, it does not affect fertility, and there’s no shame in having one.’

It’s not a cluster of unfeeling cells after about 7/8 weeks it’s a recognisable human fetus and I would not like to speculate on whether a fetus feels pain or not ? They are certainly sensitive to touch early but I would educate my daughters that they potentially do experience pain

[quote 5zeds]@FancyAnOlive is she not allowed to be shocked? Is she not allowed to consider early life “a baby”? Surely there’s room for more than one take on this?

I can tell you I AM shocked that abortion up to birth is allowed in some circumstances. You can see that as judgement or accept that my experience is mine to express or not. Why do you want to silence these female thoughts and experiences? Why must they not be voiced?[/quote]
I don't think anyone decides to have a very late-term abortion on a whim. Women who have very late-term terminations usually (as far as I know) have them because their baby has a condition that is not survivable and would cause terrible suffering during their short lives. Many of these conditions wouldn't be apparent at an earlier stage in the pregnancy, or they may need investigations that take the pregnancy over the 24-week threshold. These situations are incredibly difficult, and women must have the option to choose to end their pregnancies in these circumstances if that's what they want, and without judgement.

7/8 weeks it’s a recognisable human fetus and I would not like to speculate on whether a fetus feels pain or not ? They are certainly sensitive to touch early but I would educate my daughters that they potentially do experience pain

Then you would be giving your daughters misinformation & it certainly couldn't be considered educating @NotthesameNotok

@FancyAnOlive

How about this OP: Some women feel regret and sadness because they have had an abortion. Other women do not, they feel relieved and feel no sadness at all. No one should make anyone feel that they should have an abortion if they don't want to. No one should make anyone feel sad or guilty because they had one. Being pro choice means being respectful of other women's choices and accepting that they have the right to make them without passing judgement upon them.

Sounds sensible to me.

I would just add:

No one should make anyone feel they should continue with a pregnancy if they don't want to.

No one should make anyone feel sad, bad or irresponsible if they continue with their pregnancy.

@NotthesameNotok A foetus does not feel pain until the third trimester. Until around 26 weeks, they have no nerve receptors and no developed brainstem.

[quote 5zeds]@FancyAnOlive is she not allowed to be shocked? Is she not allowed to consider early life “a baby”? Surely there’s room for more than one take on this?

I can tell you I AM shocked that abortion up to birth is allowed in some circumstances. You can see that as judgement or accept that my experience is mine to express or not. Why do you want to silence these female thoughts and experiences? Why must they not be voiced?[/quote]
There’s a difference between being shocked and saying ‘I’m shocked, as before now I didn’t know people felt this way’, and ‘I’m shocked, therefore you’re wrong’.

No one is arguing for silencing women. What people are arguing for is being able to speak freely, blasé or not, on our experiences of what is ultimately an incredibly common medical procedure. No one should be expected to shut up.

In an ideal world, there would be no one in a position where they have to make this decision. I have had an abortion as have my three close friends. These happened at different ages and for different reasons, and were all difficult decisions. But we are all so lucky to be able to make that choice.

@Ijustreallywantacat

Abortion is a necessary service and should always be available but there needs to be more education around it

Yes, the education should be, ‘The vast majority of abortions happen before 12 weeks when the feotus is a cluster of unfeeling cells, it doesn’t have to be traumatising, it does not affect fertility, and there’s no shame in having one.’

@Ijustreallywantacat I had a miscarriage - my baby stopped developing at 7 weeks. What you have just said is a lie and semantically nonsensical.

@rhizobium

7/8 weeks it’s a recognisable human fetus and I would not like to speculate on whether a fetus feels pain or not ? They are certainly sensitive to touch early but I would educate my daughters that they potentially do experience pain

Then you would be giving your daughters misinformation & it certainly couldn't be considered educating @NotthesameNotok

Do they experience pain or not then is there an actual study you can direct me to which says with certainty they do/do not as I will happily read it and am willing to be educated so I can teach facts but if there’s doubt then I will tell them honestly that we don’t know that there is a chance they feel pain

[quote BulletTrain]@OchonAgusOchonOh Funny, because another poster who had clearly been following the narrative of the OP's posts immediately knew what I meant, so I think my point stands.[/quote]
We'll have to disagree on that one. I think your post suggests you misinterpreted the text you quoted.

As I said in my reply to the other poster, if you had taken the quote "Abortion can be totally necessary but it's also pretty sad* I would have 100% agreed with your post.