To be shocked by how blasé alot of MNers are about abortion

[Nothanksloveimfine]

Yes its healthcare, yes free and safe abortion is completely necessary because the alternative doesn't bare thinking about, yes everybody has a right to choose what's best for them and yes I am pro choice (whilst being explicitly pro life with regards to my own pregnancies)

With all that said and done, I am quite alarmed at how a sizable % of MNers are so blase about abortions. Whenever a poster is talking about being pregnant with an unplanned baby and in a less than perfect situation, I see alot of posters urging her to just have a termination like its a routine stroll through the park.

I've just read a heartbreaking article which is being discussed at the minute and some of the replies on that thread are so cold. It made me cry and I'm wondering how the hell people can read that and not be impacted by it, completely steamrolling over the tragic loss of life by saying things like "that's a rare case" abortion is a good thing bla bla bla.

Does anybody else share my view or am I the odd one out?

It's like people are so determined to bang the "right to abort" drum, they have no regard for the babies whatsoever.

Abortion can be totally necessary but it's also pretty sad IMO.

You can care about the mother without being so cold and dismissive of the baby they were carrying.

Caring about the babies doesn't mean I hate women, I am one.

Yes I've name changed because I don't expect this will go down well here.

@Doodar

Plus women using it as both control.

I actually made a thread a few years ago where I said this and I also asked, should you need to go to an advice panel in order to have an abortion?

It is used as contraception and I find that the worst thing about it. People should be more sensible

Yes, there are some circumstances where it could be an acceptable or right choice

But most babies are not profoundly disabled or the product of rape

So abortion shouldn't be so popular

@Doodar

Plus women using it as both control.

If you saw the stats on the use of abortion as birth control you would realise that it's not even worthy of mention.

@FirewomanSam

What does ‘pro choice in all cases except my own’ actually mean?

You believe everyone except you should be allowed to choose? You don’t think anyone should be forced to continue a pregnancy they don’t want, except you? It makes no sense.

Or do you simply mean that you had the choice and you chose not to abort? Which doesn’t mean you’re ‘pro life’ in your own case, it means that you were able to choose whether or not to continue with a pregnancy and you chose to do so. A choice that you should be very glad you had the option of making.

They mean they are pro-choice including for themselves... but they are incorrectly associating being pro-choice with being pro-abortion! Unfortunately a common misconception.

You believe abortion is morally wrong?
But forcing a woman or girl to remain pregnant and give birth isn’t morally wrong?
You sure about that?

It's obvious what they're saying even if you don't agree with it. There's lots of things people don't agree with, but they don't think people should be punished for doing. Pp does not sound like they're advocating forced birth, they sound like someone who probably believes in "safe, legal, rare".

People will have feelings, period. Just like how people like to chime in when some post keeps a pregnancy.

I am anti telling somebody to abort

''If you weren't pregnant, would you stay'' is a sensible question for a woman in a bad situation. Try to remember that bringing a baby into a bad situation is not a good solution.

@cultkid once again let's turn this around. Should women go to panel to be allowed to keep a pregnancy? After all some women have babies for the wrong reasons or in unsuitable environments.

Should women that are pregnant be told in significant detail everything that could go wrong with being pregnant ,giving birth and raising children? All the worst case scenarios?

@Nothanksloveimfine A lot of women don't experience sadness or regret after abortion!

In the early stages most people don't think of an embryo as a baby, just a bunch of cells. You are using emotive language by calling an embryo a baby

It's emotive to me, having invested in three rounds of IVF and suffered five miscarriages. To me, my much-wanted babies were not just a clump of cells. But that's aside from the point.

The state has no business exerting control over women's uteruses and I believe complete autonomy over one's own body should rest entirely - Gillick competence aside - with that individual. This covers abortion - including 'on demand' terminations which so seem to horrify pro-lifers 0 because within the remit of the law these are the sole terms on which individual bodily autonomy can operate. The same also needs to extend to voluntary euthanasia. Small 'c' conservatism and the (to my mind undue) influence of state religion in the UK make that a bigger problem here than in more liberal countries like Belgium. As for prosecuting grieving relatives who've accompanied their loved ones to the likes of Dignitas, this is positively inhuman.

It interests me that so many people who beat the 'pro-life' drum, here and especially in the US, are at the same time advocates of capital punishment. I wonder how they manage to square that particular circle.

Hands off other people's bodies, would be my stance.

@FirewomanSam

What does ‘pro choice in all cases except my own’ actually mean?

You believe everyone except you should be allowed to choose? You don’t think anyone should be forced to continue a pregnancy they don’t want, except you? It makes no sense.

Or do you simply mean that you had the choice and you chose not to abort? Which doesn’t mean you’re ‘pro life’ in your own case, it means that you were able to choose whether or not to continue with a pregnancy and you chose to do so. A choice that you should be very glad you had the option of making.

Yeah that was bad wording on my part.

I'll break it down.

What I meant was:

I believe every woman should have the right to choose, and I respect those choices whatever they may be.

For me personally I couldn't go through with it as I know that I (as an individual) would struggle to move past it - after coming close in the past and having to really think about it - so whilst I acknowledge that it isn't right for me, I respect the fact it is right for others and that choice should always remain.

I'm shocked by the number of women who think it's perfectly acceptable to police another woman's womb and pass comment on her body autonomy. That is the kind of attitude I expect from men who somehow feel that it's their patriarchal right to a woman's body and reproductive system.

If a woman wants to be blasé about her termination that's her right, if she wants to use it as a form of contraception that's her right, if she feels nothing but relief that's her right, it doesn't matter why she wants a termination it's her right to have one as safely and quickly as possible and to have as many as she wants without other women passing judgment with the words "I'm pro choice BUT . . ."

Women are judged by society for every single choice or action or inaction they make in their lives. If they terminate they are reprehensible baby killers or are too stupid or lazy to use contraception, if they have the child they are scroungers who did it so they can live off the "generous" benefit system or have done it to trap a poor unsuspecting man into 18 years of giving them "free money", if they leave a marriage they are breaking up the family home and contributing to the erosion of the nuclear family, if they go out to work and need childcare they are letting strangers rear their children, if they stay at home they are betraying women and the feminist movement, if they work and earn more than their male partner they are emasculating men, if they earn less they are freeloaders living of men, if they are raped it's their fault because they should not have had a drink or been walking by themselves or should have known better than to trust a partner or any man.

The list of judgements is literally endless and to hear other women continue to make comments telling women they should feel guilty or regret terminations because they don't like the idea makes me wonder what the fuck happened to feminism.

Pro-life advocates don't actually have a deep reverence for life. They only care about 'babies', which they have a bizarrely romanticised view of. They don't care about the quality of life the growing child then adult will have. They don't care about the wellbeing of the children and adults already here, whose lives might be adversely affected. Nor do they care about any other species; they're human supremacists.

Every added human being on this planet brings us one heartbeat closer to the complete eradication of all life on this planet. That's the big picture. Judging by our collective decisions, most people have no reverence for life whatsoever.

[quote unim]@Nothanksloveimfine A lot of women don't experience sadness or regret after abortion![/quote]
Good for them. Plenty do. The women who do suffer trauma shouldn't have their trauma / regret minimised because "alot of other women don't regret it"

I will never value the rights of an unborn fetus/child/baby whatever you want to call it over a living and breathing adult who already has a life and responsibilities.

For the first time in our lifetime we are witnessing the active revocation of female rights - loss of access to abortion, birth control, safe spaces, access to doctors offices and medical facilities.

Take your shock and indignation and SCREAM IT from the roof tops for the women whose rights are dwindling.

You don't want an abortion? Great - you don't have to.

But there are women with an abusive partner who is using pregnancy as a control and she feels violated at the thought of carrying his baby. There are young girls with their entire futures ahead of them who don't want a baby. There are women whose safety is dependant on not having a child. There are women who have been raped, abused. There are women who change their mind, become ill, can't afford etc. There are women who simply don't want to become Mothers.

The reasoning is irrelevant. We support one, we support all. You may regard it as 'blase' I regard it as ensuring women don't feel judged for prioritising their own needs above an unborn life.

There is always talk of how 'terrible' abortion is and how 'sad' it makes people... they are never the ones who would stand up to care for a child whose parents don't want it. It's like in the American states banning abortion and protesting outside the planning clinics.

They are also the states where they advocate so heavily for the right to bear arms without a care that children are dying in classrooms. They are also the states that vote against free accessible health care, food stamps, welfare, foster care funding, affordable housing etc. They fight for the unborn child's right to live but when that child becomes a real person that care and concern suddenly evaporates.

If you care so much about the welfare of unborn children, ask yourself what are you doing for the welfare of the living ones?

@BulletTrain

Some people just don't like to hear somebody say that abortion can be sad, do they? I understand though, sometimes it's necessary to be hard faced about it. Self preservation and all that.

I mean, I don't like to hear someone saying it should be or is sad. Implication - WTF is wrong with you horrible cold women if it isn't.

The text you have quoted there does not say it should be sad. It says it can be sad. And that is true. It can be sad.

Equally valid and normal emotions regarding abortion are relief, nonchalance, happiness, regret, anger etc. etc. A combination of conflicting emotions is also perfectly normal and equally valid.

but they are incorrectly associating being pro-choice with being pro-abortion!

This, pro choice means keeping the baby,abortions, or alternative arrangements (adoption,foster care,raised by grandparents and so on).

I've supported just as many women to keep a baby that they really wanted when no one else wanted them to, as I have women to abort one they didn't want.

No one listens to and shares the stories of women that have been forced(due to lack of other options) to give birth and the aftermath of it ,regardless if they kept the baby or not.

@Nothanksloveimfine Good for them. Plenty do. The women who do suffer trauma shouldn't have their trauma / regret minimised because "alot of other women don't regret it"

And the women who don't shouldn't be made to feel bad because they don't, yet that's what you are doing so you are very hypocritical.

Why do people always want to talk about the people who feel nothing but relief after a termination, and give little thought to the people who do? For some people it is a life changing event that they never move past.

We can't talk about that though, god forbid anybody express regret because it's not inkeeping with the popular MN stance that termination isn't much different to having a mole removed.

@OchonAgusOchonOh OP started the thread saying abortion IS sad. Stated that as a fact and in a generalised way.

Slightly changed the wording only after many ,many replies .

Some people just don't like to hear somebody say that abortion can be sad, do they?

Yes of course it can be sad. As can having a baby you don't want and don't have the resources to look after. Both can be sad. Both can be bloody brilliant.

What I can’t understand is how people who say they are pro-life/anti abortion rarely seem interested in pushing for (and some even seem to actively oppose) all the things that could actually reduce the number of abortions that happen.

Things like better sex education, teaching kids about healthy relationships and consent, freely available contraception to prevent unwanted pregnancies in the first place. And things like better support and benefits for single mothers, better maternity leave and protections for working mothers, shared parental leave being much more widely available and accepted, so that continuing with a pregnancy might feel like a more viable choice for some.

I don’t ever see people focusing on any of the above. It’s only ever the emotive aspect of ‘how could you ever kill your baby, how dreadful’ rather than thinking about the actual reasons why those situations arise in the first place.

[quote ldontWanna]@OchonAgusOchonOh OP started the thread saying abortion IS sad. Stated that as a fact and in a generalised way.

Slightly changed the wording only after many ,many replies .[/quote]
Exactly, thank you. OP started the post calling anyone who suggests or even recommends abortion cold. Now it's "Oh, but it can be sad and nobody likes to hear it".

[quote LuckySantangelo35]@NotthesameNotok

Another's woman’s body has nothing to do with you. End of.[/quote]
true - but I can educate my daughters so that they are able to make fully informed choices

OP - I do not think it is respectful towards other women to state how shocked you are that some of us have a different attitude than you towards abortion, to describe abortion as happening to 'babies' and to describe those of us who are pragmatic and non guilt ridden as 'blase'. These are quite clearly value judgements.

Some people just don't like to hear somebody say that abortion can be sad, do they?

Yes of course it can be sad. As can having a baby you don't want and don't have the resources to look after. Both can be sad. Both can be bloody brilliant.

Wholeheartedly agree with this @Patchbatch

[quote ldontWanna]@OchonAgusOchonOh OP started the thread saying abortion IS sad. Stated that as a fact and in a generalised way.

Slightly changed the wording only after many ,many replies .[/quote]
I said it CAN BE sad.