To be shocked by how blasé alot of MNers are about abortion

[Nothanksloveimfine]

Yes its healthcare, yes free and safe abortion is completely necessary because the alternative doesn't bare thinking about, yes everybody has a right to choose what's best for them and yes I am pro choice (whilst being explicitly pro life with regards to my own pregnancies)

With all that said and done, I am quite alarmed at how a sizable % of MNers are so blase about abortions. Whenever a poster is talking about being pregnant with an unplanned baby and in a less than perfect situation, I see alot of posters urging her to just have a termination like its a routine stroll through the park.

I've just read a heartbreaking article which is being discussed at the minute and some of the replies on that thread are so cold. It made me cry and I'm wondering how the hell people can read that and not be impacted by it, completely steamrolling over the tragic loss of life by saying things like "that's a rare case" abortion is a good thing bla bla bla.

Does anybody else share my view or am I the odd one out?

It's like people are so determined to bang the "right to abort" drum, they have no regard for the babies whatsoever.

Abortion can be totally necessary but it's also pretty sad IMO.

You can care about the mother without being so cold and dismissive of the baby they were carrying.

Caring about the babies doesn't mean I hate women, I am one.

Yes I've name changed because I don't expect this will go down well here.

@SexyLittleNosferatu

I would honestly save my faux-sadness for children that are born, that are here and that suffer every day. That die from lack of food, and clean water, that suffer neglect and abuse, that are raped and trafficked.

If you care sooo much about the ikkle babies then get your beak out of women's bodies and devote yourself to doing something about the children that are actually HERE.

As with all pro-lifers, it isn't really about babies or children. It's about judgement and policing women.

You and your ilk are very transparent.

It’s absolutely disgusting how anyone even questioning safe practice around abortion or wanting the correct information out there in respect of gestational age and facts about what stage of development a fetus is branded a pro lifer

Should we just keep saying it’s just a blob of jelly/clump of cells till daylight magically turns it at full term to a baby only if the mother wanted a baby???? No the facts need to be available

Bottom line is if you want an abortion you should be adult enough to know the true facts and also to insist on the correct investigations prior to ensure it is a safe procedure

[quote Hopspinach]@Blogblogblogblog No I didn't misunderstand you - it's responses like this which make it impossible to support women. How can you comfort and counsel a woman grieving the loss of her child when you won't even acknowledge that she lost a baby? "I'm sorry you're sad, but remember, it wasn't a baby you lost. It was just a foetus".[/quote]
Because in a specific situation you work with the woman you're supporting,her feelings and language. Grief after abortion is very personal and differs from woman to woman. Some mourn the baby, some are ashamed/feel guilt because society/family/friends tell them they should , some are upset or angry at themselves that they were in a position to have to have one and so on. Each and every woman needs help and support tailored to her circumstances and feelings.

A lot of women won't call the baby a baby . Either as a coping mechanism or because they don't see them as one. Forcing them to acknowledge it as such it's equally damaging if not more.

Do you think this woman would have gone ahead with it if she knew she was 30 weeks?

I would suspect not (and I am aghast that she wasn't given a scan to confirm foetus age - I was) - but doesn't that make the case many people have already mentioned? That women are perfectly capable of choosing for themselves, and we should give individual women that choice?

As to women feeling pressured by families/partners when they don't want to abort, that pressure happens in both directions - also pressure not to abort. The best we can do, again, is to make this as easy a process for a woman to choose (or not) as possible, the bigger a thing is made of it, the more time and weight that is put on it, the more vulnerable she is to persuasion and coercion.

And it's a hole in women's healthcare - if a woman is repeatedly asking for abortions, we need to be able to have a quiet word and check if everything is OK, because it likely isn't.

I understand you weren't looking for advice on continuing pregnancy or not. There will be people who feel like they can't talk/ask opinion on abortion as unacceptable in their circle and hearing from a wider range of people may be useful if they do want an abortion but struggle to consider that option.

I don't believe anyone who does not want an abortion is convinced to have one by mumsnet.

You do all know that you don't HAVE to have an abortion don't you?
They are not a mandatory thing.
If you don't want one, don't have one.

Just allow everyone to choose for themselves.
I really don't understand the point of this thread.

That's not a choice we can make without losing our moral compass.

Well no, because you’re referring to your own moral compass. I’ve never lost it because I’ve never had it, given that I’m equipped with my own. According to mine, it is infinitely worse to compel women to have children they don’t want. Is abortion ending life? Yes. Is that inherently the worst option always, no matter any other consideration? Imo, no.

As a species we accept killing on a mass scale every day, through direct actions or through inactions. We accept that animals, biologically independent and sentient, will die to provide us meat, for example. Hell, we breed them specifically to die for this purpose. A lot of pro lifers, particularly American ones, support the death penalty. They support policies that kill women everyday by forcing them to attempt abortion themselves, or by putting themselves in the hands of amateurs. Evidently, death isn’t the most important consideration at all, in reality, it’s dependent on whether you deem it an acceptable outcome or not.

Perhaps one day we’ll have the technology to make twelve week fetuses viable, but does that mean that women won’t need abortions? Probably not. Women access abortion whether it’s legal or illegal, whether you approve of that form of killing or not. Abortion has been a fact of life for as long as giving birth has, the only thing that changes are the risks involved for the women concerned.

I have seen posts where people post having a termination as an option. That's fine in my opinion to remind a women in a shit situation that she has choices. I have also seen it written as 'have a termination op' or that they'd terminate in that situation and yes to me that does come across as callous because it implies that the decision will be easy for the op and whilst sometimes it is, for some it isn't. To some abortions may not be traumatic whereas for others they will be. Some people will agonise over the decision and feel sadness, some won't. Both equally valid feelings.

I wouldn't judge any women for having an abortion whatever her reasons are, I don't care to know. For myself I did consider it once, it would have been the sensible decision for me in some ways but it wasn't what I wanted deep down so I continued the pregnancy. I'm glad I had the choice and I was able to make one I'm happy with.

@HRTQueen

We do know you are judgemental over the subject of termination

We have read your posts ….

Show me the judgement.

I can show you the 10+ posts I've written which state that I support women who abort as much as I support women who don't. I am not anti abortion. I am anti telling somebody to abort or telling them that they are mad / stupid / selfish not to.

You can try and find a hidden meaning in my posts if you like, you're wasting your time, I know what I am.

I have been close to having a termination myself. If somebody was pro life the thought wouldn't even cross their mind.

I have supported one of my closest friends through a termination.

I would extend kindness to ANY woman, irrespective of her choice and the factors involved.

Some people just don't like to hear somebody say that abortion can be sad, do they? I understand though, sometimes it's necessary to be hard faced about it. Self preservation and all that.

@Skelligsfeathers

You do all know that you don't HAVE to have an abortion don't you? They are not a mandatory thing. If you don't want one, don't have one.

Just allow everyone to choose for themselves.
I really don't understand the point of this thread.

Personal choice is one thing but like in my case I have home educated daughters

I will be teaching them as part of biology / pshe about fetal stages and development in great detail and I will also make sure they are aware of the full realities of all abortion procedures so that are in full control of their potential future choices and know what will happen to their bodies

@Skelligsfeathers

You do all know that you don't HAVE to have an abortion don't you? They are not a mandatory thing. If you don't want one, don't have one.

Just allow everyone to choose for themselves.
I really don't understand the point of this thread.

I know I don't have to have one.

The point of the thread is that I think it's unacceptable how people on mumsnet think its OK to tell somebody else to have one.

One poster here has admitted that they do tell people in undesirable situations to have one, because they wished that they did years ago and now they're tied to an arsehole man.

Nobody has the right to tell somebody they around abort or infer that they are selfish for not doing it.

If you support the continuance of easily available abortion you are pro-choice. You can still find it sad that abortion happens. I don't personally get particularly upset about this. But feeling sad about it doesn't make you anti-choice, talking about that doesn't make you anti-choice either. Not a post I'd have ever made but I don't need everyone to feel the same as me; I'm baffled as to why people demand such rigid adherence to the language and outlook they deem correct.

The language you use ….

I agree OP. I believe abortion is morally wrong. But I don’t believe I have any right to tell anyone else what to do, or how they should feel about their choices.

@Nothanksloveimfine The point is you seem to think a woman should 'pay' for having an abortion by feeling sad and regretful. Whereas many women feel relieved and happy. But you you think if a woman has an abortion she should suffer emotionally. That's why people are saying you are not pro-choice.

It's great that you are pro choice

It's not great that you think everyone else should respond emotionally in the same way that you do.

Your emotional response, doesn't make other people's emotional response wrong. Instead it makes you judgemental because you are effectively telling other people how to feel & you have no right to do this. You lack genuine understanding that you don't get to decide how other people react & that could be considered controlling. It's also ridiculous.

It’s absolutely disgusting how anyone even questioning safe practice around abortion or wanting the correct information out there in respect of gestational age and facts about what stage of development a fetus is branded a pro lifer

Should we just keep saying it’s just a blob of jelly/clump of cells till daylight magically turns it at full term to a baby only if the mother wanted a baby???? No the facts need to be available

People usually use ‘baby’ to signify their specific emotional judgement. Same way others use ‘clump of cells’ to signify theirs. Schrödinger fetus, it’s both and it’s neither, it’s reflects whatever you want to put it on it.

What people object to is those that think their emotional response to a fetus is a universal truth that must be shared by all. I don’t think anyone takes issue with actual facts, what they take issue with is loading said facts with a certain meaning and forcing that on everyone else.

Safe practice in regards to abortion had been studied at length by providers and other bodies that concern themselves with women's healthcare. When laypeople discount the evidence because it doesn’t suit their narrative, they’re not doing it because they want to protect women, they’re doing it because they want their agenda promoted no matter what.

@NotthesameNotok

Another's woman’s body has nothing to do with you. End of.

I think that women should be grateful to have these choices as they exist today. Some would say no doubt that the procedure it too easy. Before 1967 it was back street abortions as portrayed in the movie Alfie. Even after 1967 and into the 1970s it was a surgical procedure involving a GA and a hospital stay.

I whole heartedly agree with you
I am really not into abortion at all, it bothers me a lot and I don't think it's the right choice most of the time

Some people just don't like to hear somebody say that abortion can be sad, do they? I understand though, sometimes it's necessary to be hard faced about it. Self preservation and all that.

I mean, I don't like to hear someone saying it should be or is sad. Implication - WTF is wrong with you horrible cold women if it isn't.

@EdgeOfACoin

I agree with you entirely, OP.

A foetus is a living being. A foetus requires nourishment. It grows. It excretes. It moves. It requires oxygen. It is sensitive to changes in its environment. It fulfils every criteria of life. And it isn't growing into a pumpkin or a potato, it is a human.

Nobody can look at the scan of even a ten week old foetus and be in any doubt as to what they are looking at (hint: not a mole; not an indiscernible mass of cells).

There are some circumstances where an abortion is necessary. But I agree that an abortion is treated as just any other form of birth control - like a condom or the coil - and is utterly trivialised.

But anyone who expressed such a view is automatically condemned as far right, 'anti-choice' and portrayed as wanting to strap rape victims down and force them to give birth. There's a hell of a lot of strawman-ing that goes in in this debate, which is really very tiresome.

Also totally agree with this

Some people just don't like to hear somebody say that abortion can be sad, do they? I understand though, sometimes it's necessary to be hard faced about it. Self preservation and all that.

Are you even reading what people are saying? Of course people are allowed to be sad. No one is saying women can’t be sad about abortion, or that those voices shouldn’t be heard. What people are saying is that they’re not the only voices that are worthy of being heard, and that other experiences matter and should be vocalized also.

Self preservation has everything to do with it, but not in the way you may think. It’s of vital importance that women get to vocalize their own experiences in whatever way they want to, rather than have said experiences dictated to them.

@Talkingcat you’re obviously very invested in the pro choice over everything else camp. Which is fine and I wish you luck with your point of view.

To suggest that Stanford would publish a research update that is highly spurious is pretty silly. You might expect nonsense from lesser institutions, but Stanford?!

I could sit and do you a lit review on the whole argument with an avalanche of up to date research - showing how children born early can be very badly disabled and how survival with no impairment is improving.

Where I stand is middle ground.

If you have such extreme views and publish a bunch of statistics and beliefs based on science - can you at least put links to where you’ve got all this information from please. So people can judge as to its validity.

Those who are academically qualified usually reference what they quote.

What does ‘pro choice in all cases except my own’ actually mean?

You believe everyone except you should be allowed to choose? You don’t think anyone should be forced to continue a pregnancy they don’t want, except you? It makes no sense.

Or do you simply mean that you had the choice and you chose not to abort? Which doesn’t mean you’re ‘pro life’ in your own case, it means that you were able to choose whether or not to continue with a pregnancy and you chose to do so. A choice that you should be very glad you had the option of making.

@Stylishkidintheriot

I agree OP. I believe abortion is morally wrong. But I don’t believe I have any right to tell anyone else what to do, or how they should feel about their choices.

@Stylishkidintheriot

You believe abortion is morally wrong?
But forcing a woman or girl to remain pregnant and give birth isn’t morally wrong?
You sure about that?