To be shocked by how blasé alot of MNers are about abortion

[Nothanksloveimfine]

Yes its healthcare, yes free and safe abortion is completely necessary because the alternative doesn't bare thinking about, yes everybody has a right to choose what's best for them and yes I am pro choice (whilst being explicitly pro life with regards to my own pregnancies)

With all that said and done, I am quite alarmed at how a sizable % of MNers are so blase about abortions. Whenever a poster is talking about being pregnant with an unplanned baby and in a less than perfect situation, I see alot of posters urging her to just have a termination like its a routine stroll through the park.

I've just read a heartbreaking article which is being discussed at the minute and some of the replies on that thread are so cold. It made me cry and I'm wondering how the hell people can read that and not be impacted by it, completely steamrolling over the tragic loss of life by saying things like "that's a rare case" abortion is a good thing bla bla bla.

Does anybody else share my view or am I the odd one out?

It's like people are so determined to bang the "right to abort" drum, they have no regard for the babies whatsoever.

Abortion can be totally necessary but it's also pretty sad IMO.

You can care about the mother without being so cold and dismissive of the baby they were carrying.

Caring about the babies doesn't mean I hate women, I am one.

Yes I've name changed because I don't expect this will go down well here.

I would have no reason to have an abortion on paper, but if I got pregnant now I wouldnt even think twice about it. We've got the big house ready for the future kid, the money to afford it, just about to be married, and the intention to start trying for one in about two years. I just dont want one right now, I want to get my head around it a bit more and get my career a bit more streamlined etc first. Maybe do the garden so we've got somewhere nicer to sit out.

Even when i do try, if there is a large possibility of the baby being born with any sort of serious issues picked up in whatever private tests I can get, I will abort and try again.

I'm just not emotional about this. Quality of life, to me, is far more important than just quantity of life. It makes me more sad to see children clearly unwanted, or wanted but not given the care I would hope all children are. A friend's niece got pregnant at thirteen and kept it. Devastating for both the child having the baby and the baby itself.

It doesnt really matter how many MNs say get an abortion..you dont just go to the shop and buy one on impulse. There are appointments and consultations to ensure the person is informed and making the right choice.

Far less dangerous than saying just keep it.

@TurningUpMyStereotype wholeheartedly agree. You can be pro choice and still believe that a blasé attitude and jokes about abortion aren't funny.

@TedMullins

Yeah you’re spot on *@whumpthereitis*. I don’t waste time worrying about what people think of me. I made a joke in company that I knew would find it funny. Would I blurt it out in the middle of the office? No, but if the subject of abortion came up in any setting I would absolutely be honest that to me it was not difficult or traumatic. I will never police my feelings for anyone else’s benefit

I'd also, and have, talk openly about my abortion- let's not conflate making an odd 'joke' with people speaking openly and freely about abortion.

@ldontWanna

The parents remained in NICU with their baby for 4 days as the hospital tried to save him

A baby that they didn't want to begin with, hence the abortion medication.

Why don't you say that to the mother and see how it serves you, you'd probably end up with a smack in the mouth.

She believed she was terminating a 12 week pregnancy and wasn't prepared to birth a live and otherwise viable baby.

For many people, they couldn't fathom aborting beyond 24 weeks unless to save life or avoid suffering.

Do you think this woman would have gone ahead with it if she knew she was 30 weeks?

I’m sure people do think the same for men on an individual level, but on a societal level it is far more acceptable and expected for men to be ‘straight talkers’. A woman that speaks her mind without censor is viewed with far more suspicion and subject to far more criticism.

@Hopspinach

Going by how fundamentalist some people on here are about what being "pro-choice" means, I'd be surprised if, in the near future, anyone actually manages to call themselves pro-choice.

"You support abortion but think that the woman's grief should be acknowledged? YOU'RE NOT PRO-CHOICE!"
"You support abortion but think that after a certain stage of gestation the foetus should be given painkillers? YOU'RE NOT PRO-CHOICE!"
"You support abortion but think that it's a decision which shouldn't be taken lightly? YOU'RE NOT PRO-CHOICE!"

So "pro-choice" is basically a term that allows for 0 nuance. If that's how the discussion is going, I think people will soon abandon the label pretty readily. When terms are being constantly redefined by a minority of intolerant and sectarian ideologues, they lose all meaning.

100% agree with you. For many, pro choice seems to equate to "abortion is always the solution to an unexpected pregnancy".

Pro-choice means supporting a woman's decision even if you don't agree that it is the right choice.

I have never seen anyone telling someone to have an abortion on MN! The only thing that comes close is when an OP is specifically seeking advice and someone says that if they were in that position/when they were in a similar position in the past, they would or have chosen to terminate. There’s absolutely nothing wrong with saying that, it’s simply sharing your perspective when someone has asked and helping them to see different options and approaches. In the same thread people will post that the OP can or ships continue with the pregnancy and post about how they were in a similar situation and kept the pregnancy and it turned out ok. This is quite literally the point of mumsnet.

[quote Robinni]@TalkingCat WOW and I’ve just read the rest of your post. Which is absolutely ludicrous, highly emotive, biased and not up to date with current science remotely…..

Still can’t get over that you called Stanford a religious prolife organisation lols lols lols[/quote]
I never called Stanford a religious prolife organisation. I said the author is known to be, and these papers are often from a point of bias. You haven't much experience with academia if you honestly think a Professor can't be biased or use skewed data. 'lols lols lols' back at you.

Why don't you say that to the mother and see how it serves you, you'd probably end up with a smack in the mouth.

Lots of serving here. Served a smack in the mouth, served assault charges…

I’m sure for some fetal viability is the most important consideration, but that’s not true for all. My pro choice position is based on the fact that I think legal abortion is always preferable to women subjecting themselves to the alternative. I’m not pro choice dependent on the fetus, but on the woman. I believe all women should have their bodily autonomy respected, regardless of what their body contains.

@RealBecca

It doesnt really matter how many MNs say get an abortion..you dont just go to the shop and buy one on impulse. There are appointments and consultations to ensure the person is informed and making the right choice.

Far less dangerous than saying just keep it.

That wasn't the case for me to be honest.

I called up and got an appointment. I had to ask for the counselling before the appointment, it wasn't just offered.

The counselling phone call lasted 10 minutes and she was clearly biased and in favour of termination.

I turned up to my appointment and was told "don't worry, we can give you the tablets today"

So I wasn't particularly well supported at all and nobody bothered to explore other options with me.

I said I wanted to think about it for a while, the lady at the clinic said no problem you can ask for some further counselling but the first one put me off so I didn't bother.

I sat with my thoughts for a few days and decided to proceed with the pregnancy.

I would honestly save my faux-sadness for children that are born, that are here and that suffer every day. That die from lack of food, and clean water, that suffer neglect and abuse, that are raped and trafficked.

If you care sooo much about the ikkle babies then get your beak out of women's bodies and devote yourself to doing something about the children that are actually HERE.

As with all pro-lifers, it isn't really about babies or children. It's about judgement and policing women.

You and your ilk are very transparent.

It's interesting how conflicting the definitions of pro choice are on this thread.

Some posters maintain loudly that a late term abortion is akin to a very early termination and shouldn't be thought of differently and anyone who doesn't agree isn't pro choice because that is the only way to be pro choice.

Others who say they support abortion until 24 weeks and see it as all the same up to that point but not any later. But they're still pro choice apparently and claim to be blasé about it.

They don't bicker amongst themselves about this despite the disagreement about whether they're even under the same banner. They just turn on the op in unison.

I don't think a late term baby should be aborted. It has to come out, it can live outside the womb, the woman in question no longer has the choice to just not be pregnant. It will always be some kind of birth. She doesn't have the right to take that life just because it's inside her. That's not a choice we can make without losing our moral compass. As difficult as it might be to go on through life knowing you had a baby and chose to relinquish that baby, I prefer that than simply opting to kill a viable baby who has got to get out somehow and can go on living perfectly well without the op's input. And I dare to prefer it for other women's babies because we all have an opinion on how children should be treated in our society. It's not a perfect world and all the choices are imperfect. And that's all radical pro choice statements are-an opinion. Not some timeless truth.

What I really don't like is seeing how being blasé about termination actually limits some women's choices because they experience judgement and pressure in some circumstances from people who will be affected by the baby's existence and take it personally that the woman isn't as blasé as they think she should be. Not being able to terminate on moral or emotional grounds is denied as a genuine position. Yet for some women it's not even a choice. It's just the way it is for them and that should be ok. Yet to the man accusing his girlfriend of 'entrapment' if she doesn't terminate, the doctor pressurising a parent of a foetus with Down's Syndrome, the husband threatening to leave if a termination doesn't happen and feeling the right to remain bitter about maintenance payments if she didn't, there was only one acceptable choice. Such women get the sharp end of the termination option and they suffer for it. In fact some kind of inverse morality is often applied on Mumsnet, with the choice option hastily morphed into 'doing the right thing' and it becomes selfish to not have a termination. Despite the insistence that anyone who doesn't agree with all abortions shouldn't say a word because they're talking about other people who need to make their own unique choice, such posters tell the op insistently what they would do (and make it sound like you'd need your head examining if you didn't follow suit) as if it has relevance. That's twisted and back to front.

@Blogblogblogblog No I didn't misunderstand you - it's responses like this which make it impossible to support women. How can you comfort and counsel a woman grieving the loss of her child when you won't even acknowledge that she lost a baby? "I'm sorry you're sad, but remember, it wasn't a baby you lost. It was just a foetus".

I would honestly save my faux-sadness for children that are born, that are here and that suffer every day. That die from lack of food, and clean water, that suffer neglect and abuse, that are raped and trafficked.

It is possible to feel sad that people are so blasé about abortion AND for children in the world that are suffering. Sorry if you can’t feel empathy for more than one issue at a time, must be hard for you.

@Incapacitated

It's interesting how conflicting the definitions of pro choice are on this thread.

Some posters maintain loudly that a late term abortion is akin to a very early termination and shouldn't be thought of differently and anyone who doesn't agree isn't pro choice because that is the only way to be pro choice.

Others who say they support abortion until 24 weeks and see it as all the same up to that point but not any later. But they're still pro choice apparently and claim to be blasé about it.

They don't bicker amongst themselves about this despite the disagreement about whether they're even under the same banner. They just turn on the op in unison.

I don't think a late term baby should be aborted. It has to come out, it can live outside the womb, the woman in question no longer has the choice to just not be pregnant. It will always be some kind of birth. She doesn't have the right to take that life just because it's inside her. That's not a choice we can make without losing our moral compass. As difficult as it might be to go on through life knowing you had a baby and chose to relinquish that baby, I prefer that than simply opting to kill a viable baby who has got to get out somehow and can go on living perfectly well without the op's input. And I dare to prefer it for other women's babies because we all have an opinion on how children should be treated in our society. It's not a perfect world and all the choices are imperfect. And that's all radical pro choice statements are-an opinion. Not some timeless truth.

What I really don't like is seeing how being blasé about termination actually limits some women's choices because they experience judgement and pressure in some circumstances from people who will be affected by the baby's existence and take it personally that the woman isn't as blasé as they think she should be. Not being able to terminate on moral or emotional grounds is denied as a genuine position. Yet for some women it's not even a choice. It's just the way it is for them and that should be ok. Yet to the man accusing his girlfriend of 'entrapment' if she doesn't terminate, the doctor pressurising a parent of a foetus with Down's Syndrome, the husband threatening to leave if a termination doesn't happen and feeling the right to remain bitter about maintenance payments if she didn't, there was only one acceptable choice. Such women get the sharp end of the termination option and they suffer for it. In fact some kind of inverse morality is often applied on Mumsnet, with the choice option hastily morphed into 'doing the right thing' and it becomes selfish to not have a termination. Despite the insistence that anyone who doesn't agree with all abortions shouldn't say a word because they're talking about other people who need to make their own unique choice, such posters tell the op insistently what they would do (and make it sound like you'd need your head examining if you didn't follow suit) as if it has relevance. That's twisted and back to front.

Fantastic post

Well I had the ‘wrong’ type of abortion and feel fine about it.

As in, I was in a stable relationship- the one I’m still in, and we planned to have children in the next few years. Contraceptive failure lead to an unplanned pregnancy. The moment I realised my period was late I felt awful and trapped.

The hardest thing about it was difficult to access care (recently moved so wasn’t registered with a GP, it was a bank holiday so everything closed, backlog when opened again). The stress of that, and that it took a while to get an appointment made things worse for me.

Could I have had that baby? Yes.

But If I had, I’m pretty sure I’d be a single parent to one child now.

DH and I dote on our kids. But we both found the transition into parenthood hard. During the first year with the first baby I seriously considered leaving DH given his lack of support.

The fact that it was a planned baby, and that DH fully owned the choice to become a parent, didn’t feel bounced into it, made a massive difference to us finding a way through together.

(To be clear i didn’t end the pregnancy because he wanted me to, I was certain that was what I wanted and also would have felt trapped if I’d gone ahead).

I’m grateful to that pregnancy as it made us examine ‘why not now?’ And get ourselves ready.

We have a very happy home life now. And our children know how much we adored them, that we wanted them.

I know another couple who still argue in-front of their now teen DC over whose fault it was they were conceived. It’s awful.

It was right for me. No regrets just gratitude.

Experience wise it was the same as an early miscarriage, I’ve had several of those too.

@Nothanksloveimfine

Ah - I hadn't realised that phrase was intended to refer to a specific case. Haven't read the other thread. Thanks. OP still refers to 'babies' as being aborted (not referring to that case) which IMHO is emotive and innaccurate though.

@Nothanksloveimfine

Truth hurts does it?

Oh sorry you are OP. Am multitasking

Let's turn it around.

AIBU to be shocked at how blasé ,callous and cold posters on here are about adoption?

It's always given as a solution without any thought if the practicalities and potential trauma.

"Just give the baby up for adoption ."

No thought as to where that baby goes, what support and help there is in place ,where the baby might end up.

No thought to the physical,mental and emotional effects on the mother of carrying a pregnancy to term, and then the birth.

Just throwing around a "solution" that for years was used to punish and traumatise young girls and women. A "solution " that survivors still talk about and carry that trauma,guilt,pain and shame with them.

I'm pro choice and think women should give their babies up to adoption(but I wouldn't ever do such a thing) but reading these stories are oh so sad and make me cry and isn't it oh so horrible that women can just dump their babies and are encouraged to do so ? How dare they not to be sad and traumatised by it?

Doesn't quite work does it?

P.S. I am pro choice, that choice being keeping a baby ,giving it up for adoption or abortion,for whatever reason and no caveats of neverending suffering /sadness because a woman made that choice.

Well said SexyLittleNosferatu

Yes to think we are stupid enough to not see through this I’m so concerned over the blasé attitudes

Absolutely, totally agree with you, OP.

We do know you are judgemental over the subject of termination

We have read your posts ….