To be shocked by how blasé alot of MNers are about abortion

[Nothanksloveimfine]

Yes its healthcare, yes free and safe abortion is completely necessary because the alternative doesn't bare thinking about, yes everybody has a right to choose what's best for them and yes I am pro choice (whilst being explicitly pro life with regards to my own pregnancies)

With all that said and done, I am quite alarmed at how a sizable % of MNers are so blase about abortions. Whenever a poster is talking about being pregnant with an unplanned baby and in a less than perfect situation, I see alot of posters urging her to just have a termination like its a routine stroll through the park.

I've just read a heartbreaking article which is being discussed at the minute and some of the replies on that thread are so cold. It made me cry and I'm wondering how the hell people can read that and not be impacted by it, completely steamrolling over the tragic loss of life by saying things like "that's a rare case" abortion is a good thing bla bla bla.

Does anybody else share my view or am I the odd one out?

It's like people are so determined to bang the "right to abort" drum, they have no regard for the babies whatsoever.

Abortion can be totally necessary but it's also pretty sad IMO.

You can care about the mother without being so cold and dismissive of the baby they were carrying.

Caring about the babies doesn't mean I hate women, I am one.

Yes I've name changed because I don't expect this will go down well here.

Bla bla what

Pro choice is the woman makes a choice to continue with pregnancy or not

It’s really not difficult to understand what the term means even if you don’t agree

@Patchbatch I think if it’s getting to the point the child (if no abnormalities are detected) could have a 50/50% chance at survival with half having no impairment (according to that study) it raises a valid argument for lowering the cut off point really. But not really on topic for the thread.

Hopspinach - if someone thinks abortion is grudgingly ok, in certain circumstances, if there's no alternative and it's very very sad then I do not think this qualifies as being pro choice. To me, pro choice means that you accept that women have the right to choose an abortion regardless of the circumstances and the alternatives.

Still a lot less blaze than the blokes chucking their sperm about though no? Are you as aghast at men having sex willy nilly without contraception?

Yes, I absolutely am. I abhor men like that.

@Patchbatch

Stop being so partisan. Learn to have a nuanced discussion that doesn't involve putting people in boxes.

But someone isn't pro-choice if they're okay with it but with arbitrary caveats they have decided on. That's pro-whatever I choose to think is fine. Which is okay, but why not just say that rather than I'm pro-choice buuuut. It has an air of I'm not racist but.....

It’s a little more complicated than a simple binary of pro choice vs pro life. It is really a spectrum of opinions based on individual science and beliefs. Many are pro choice when it’s just a mass of cells with no heart or brain, the first trimester. Others are pro choice up to when the neonate can survive outside the womb...approx 24 weeks...others are extreme pro choice to include abortion up to full term/anytime before labour starts and even if the neonate survives the abortion proceedings (lethal injection), they are simply left to die by exposure/withholding of medical treatment. None of these lines are “arbitrary” they are all based on when science and belief tells the person that the foetus has personhood or is a human life.

@EmpressCixi

No one aborts at the stage a foetus will survive, unless it's a medical condition. No one

That’s not quite true everywhere. Survival is possible after 21 weeks and probable (better than 50% chance) after 24 weeks. The U.K. allows abortion on request up to 24 weeks and so some of those in the 21-24week window might have survived. In addition, eight US states including NY, NM, CO, NH etc allow abortions on demand up to full term/birth. Canada, China, North Korea all also allow abortion on demand up to full term/birth.

@EmpressCixi Absolutely untrue. There is not one case, not ONE case of survival at 22 weeks, let alone 21. It's not even possible. You are misinformed.

@TurningUpMyStereotype

No I don’t. women who want to talk openly about the regret or sadness or trauma they felt about theirs don’t stop and think about whether they’re guilt tripping or judging people like me, who don’t feel those things. And they shouldn’t. Everyone is entitled to voice their feelings honestly and should accept others feel differently.

You made a ‘joke’. Personally I don’t like jokes about things like that. And also if I’m going to discuss something which I know may be upsetting to some, I do stop and think. I don’t think I have the right to just blurt out anything and everything and not give a fuck who I upset. That’s me though and precisely why I would be unlikely to be friends with people that are blasé about things like this.

And you’re entitled to feel like this. My humour in general can be quite cutting and off colour and I have a few friends in particular who are the same. We’ve made worse jokes than that in private. I don’t think anything is beyond being poked fun at, so someone more sensitive is unlikely to get on with me anyway, regardless of my views on abortion.

@Patchbatch

To be fair that joke is grim, if I heard someone saying it I'd think they were pretty weird.

I’m sure she can live quite happily with that. There are worse things to be than weird.

It always seems to be women that are expected to tailor their speech for the benefit of others. Men are allowed to be direct, encouraged even, but women must always be mindful of being nice. Well no, women don’t owe anyone ‘nice’.

It’s just a difference in perspective - people are on the spectrum from “abortion is murder” to “abortion is sad” right down to “abortion is just a collection of cells and potential, so not at all sad in the early stages”.

But you are perfectly entitled to feel sad about abortions, the important thing for me is that you believe in choice for every woman, even if you wouldn’t choose to have one yourself.

And it’s understandable that you feel that people who seem blasé about terminations are “cold”. But it’s important to realise that they’re not coming from the same perspective as you.

One person’s practical is another person’s cold.

There is no “right” opinion in my view, apart from everyone having the choice and right to access termination when needed/wanted.

My humour in general can be quite cutting and off colour and I have a few friends in particular who are the same. We’ve made worse jokes than that in private. I don’t think anything is beyond being poked fun at, so someone more sensitive is unlikely to get on with me anyway, regardless of my views on abortion.

Be under no illusion that the wider public find 'jokes' like that anything other than sick. Birds of a feather flock together, so they say.

You are also not pro choice if your terms of reference re abortion are all about 'the babies' and 'the tragic loss of life' FFS.

I’m sure she can live quite happily with that. There are worse things to be than weird.

It always seems to be women that are expected to tailor their speech for the benefit of others. Men are allowed to be direct, encouraged even, but women must always be mindful of being nice. Well no, women don’t owe anyone ‘nice’.

I don't expect many men go round joking about it to be fair, I'd think a bloke was disgusting too. And I fully expect someone who finds it a reasonable and funny thing to say to give no fucks what anyone else thinks- just saying I don't think you have to be anti abortion to find it really odd.

@Nothanksloveimfine

My humour in general can be quite cutting and off colour and I have a few friends in particular who are the same. We’ve made worse jokes than that in private. I don’t think anything is beyond being poked fun at, so someone more sensitive is unlikely to get on with me anyway, regardless of my views on abortion.

Be under no illusion that the wider public find 'jokes' like that anything other than sick. Birds of a feather flock together, so they say.

So what though? You say that like it should mean anything to Nothanks. So the wider public may or may not like it. Okay, cool, so fucking what?

And you’re entitled to feel like this. My humour in general can be quite cutting and off colour and I have a few friends in particular who are the same. We’ve made worse jokes than that in private. I don’t think anything is beyond being poked fun at, so someone more sensitive is unlikely to get on with me anyway, regardless of my views on abortion.

Do what you want in private, with people you know appreciate your ‘humour’. But I do think you should consider others when joking about dead foetuses in public.

I have a relative who sounds like you, says what she likes and tells people that they have to accept her how she is. Nope, I don’t.

Yeah you’re spot on @whumpthereitis. I don’t waste time worrying about what people think of me. I made a joke in company that I knew would find it funny. Would I blurt it out in the middle of the office? No, but if the subject of abortion came up in any setting I would absolutely be honest that to me it was not difficult or traumatic. I will never police my feelings for anyone else’s benefit

@TalkingCat
EmpressCixi Absolutely untrue. There is not one case, not ONE case of survival at 22 weeks, let alone 21. It's not even possible. You are misinformed.

Sorry you are over thirty years behind the times:

James Eldin Gill
Year born: 1987
Age at birth: 21 weeks gestation
Survived?: Yes
Weight at birth: 14.8 ounces / 0.925 pounds / 419.5 grams

Amilia Taylor
Year born: 2006
Age at birth: 21 weeks & 6 days
Survived?: Yes
Weight at birth: 10 ounces / 0.625 pounds / 283.4 grams

Richard Hutchinson
Year born: 2020
Age at birth: 21 weeks gestation
Survived?: Yes
Weight at birth: 11.9 ounces / 0.74 pounds / 337.3 grams

Curtis Means
Year born: 2020
Age at birth: 21 weeks gestation
Survived?: Yes
Weight at birth: 14.8 ounces / 0.925 pounds / 419.5 grams

@TalkingCat

Erm….. that paper is from Stanford

You know Stanford University ranked third in the world…..

It isn’t prolife… it’s a highly respected academic institution….

neonatologist Krisa Van Meurs, MD, a Stanford Medicine emerita professor of pediatrics was a co-author on the study

Going by how fundamentalist some people on here are about what being "pro-choice" means, I'd be surprised if, in the near future, anyone actually manages to call themselves pro-choice.

"You support abortion but think that the woman's grief should be acknowledged? YOU'RE NOT PRO-CHOICE!"
"You support abortion but think that after a certain stage of gestation the foetus should be given painkillers? YOU'RE NOT PRO-CHOICE!"
"You support abortion but think that it's a decision which shouldn't be taken lightly? YOU'RE NOT PRO-CHOICE!"

So "pro-choice" is basically a term that allows for 0 nuance. If that's how the discussion is going, I think people will soon abandon the label pretty readily. When terms are being constantly redefined by a minority of intolerant and sectarian ideologues, they lose all meaning.

@FancyAnOlive

You are also not pro choice if your terms of reference re abortion are all about 'the babies' and 'the tragic loss of life' FFS.

Tragic loss of life was used to describe one particular case where the baby was born at 30 weeks with severe brain damage and multiple organ failure, because the mother was prescribed mifepristone as it was believed she was only 12 weeks pregnant.

An inquest showed that the little boy, who they named Ronnie, was viable had it not been for the mifepristone which was wrongfully prescribed.

The parents remained in NICU with their baby for 4 days as the hospital tried to save him.

That is a tragic loss of life and I have no doubt that those poor parents felt every bit of it.

All the responses telling the OP 'you're not pro-choice' display such black and white thinking. Who are you to tell someone what they believe?

I agree with OP. She isn't saying that women shouldn't have abortions, she's saying that she is uncomfortable with the way some posters give such simplistic advice, which I think often comes from dogma, not from any empathy with the situation that the woman considering her options finds herself in.

Abortion isn't a simple issue, as all the many and varied stories from previous posters show. It ranges from a straightforward, 'I definitely don't want to be pregnant' at 6 weeks, to an agonising decision at a later stage when there is no easy answer.

It's also odd when there is such a movement these days to recognise that miscarriage is potentially a traumatic loss, to insist that an abortion is just getting rid of cells.

No one's feelings are 'wrong', they are all valid.

@TalkingCat WOW and I’ve just read the rest of your post. Which is absolutely ludicrous, highly emotive, biased and not up to date with current science remotely…..

Still can’t get over that you called Stanford a religious prolife organisation lols lols lols

I agree @GreenTeaPingPong
There’s a startling lack of nuance on Mn when it comes to a few issues, abortion being one.
(I have had an abortion)

It always seems to be women that are expected to tailor their speech for the benefit of others. Men are allowed to be direct, encouraged even, but women must always be mindful of being nice. Well no, women don’t owe anyone ‘nice’.

I think the same for men. Some things shouldn’t be joked about imo. Maybe some people here think Chris Rock and Frankie Boyle are funny joking about medical conditions and disabled children. Not my thing, just like jokes about abortion.

The parents remained in NICU with their baby for 4 days as the hospital tried to save him

A baby that they didn't want to begin with, hence the abortion medication.

[quote Hopspinach]@Blogblogblogblog It's precisely such cold responses like that which make it impossible to properly support women who have had or are considering an abortion.[/quote]
You may have misunderstood me. Maybe not. I quoted a previous poster whose views I agreed with in that the OP is projecting the term baby on something that isn’t in reality a baby. I absolutely think you should use the correct terms to properly support women who are making that choice. And that term isn’t baby. It’s embryo or foetus.