To be shocked by how blasé alot of MNers are about abortion

[Nothanksloveimfine]

Yes its healthcare, yes free and safe abortion is completely necessary because the alternative doesn't bare thinking about, yes everybody has a right to choose what's best for them and yes I am pro choice (whilst being explicitly pro life with regards to my own pregnancies)

With all that said and done, I am quite alarmed at how a sizable % of MNers are so blase about abortions. Whenever a poster is talking about being pregnant with an unplanned baby and in a less than perfect situation, I see alot of posters urging her to just have a termination like its a routine stroll through the park.

I've just read a heartbreaking article which is being discussed at the minute and some of the replies on that thread are so cold. It made me cry and I'm wondering how the hell people can read that and not be impacted by it, completely steamrolling over the tragic loss of life by saying things like "that's a rare case" abortion is a good thing bla bla bla.

Does anybody else share my view or am I the odd one out?

It's like people are so determined to bang the "right to abort" drum, they have no regard for the babies whatsoever.

Abortion can be totally necessary but it's also pretty sad IMO.

You can care about the mother without being so cold and dismissive of the baby they were carrying.

Caring about the babies doesn't mean I hate women, I am one.

Yes I've name changed because I don't expect this will go down well here.

@FancyAnOlive

No OP, you are not pro-choice.

Stop being so partisan. Learn to have a nuanced discussion that doesn't involve putting people in boxes.

@Nelliephant1

I honestly can't believe either how blase posters are abs how disposable these pregnancies see to be.

I find it heartbreaking and very worrying just how de rigeur abortion seems to have become. So sad.

Do you not think its more heartbreaking for children to be born unwanted, sometimes into shit circumstances and feel bad for the mother who has their entire life now dictated by a child they didn't want? Despite anecdotes people don't use it as a form of contraception, and if they are something is going wrong with the support they are receiving and that should be addressed rather than making them harder to access

@Patchbatch

However if I was coerced into an abortion, hadn't thought it through or did it for the wrong reasons and regretted it, then I would feel sad for me too.

I'd feel sad if i continued with a pregnancy for the wrong reasons too, or because others thought I should jump through millions of hoops and justify my concerns. Basically being coerced into either is sad, hence choice being important. Sure some regret abortion just as some deepy regret and hate having a child.

Very, very true.

I didn't touch on regretting having the child in my post from the woman's POV but that is something very important to think about as well.

You are obviously not pro choice either @VanGoghsDog

[quote Robinni]@TalkingCat the rate of prem survival is increasing at 22-23 weeks with active treatment there is a 28-55% survival rate, based on a US study that came out at the beginning of this year.
scopeblog.stanford.edu/2022/02/08/premature-babies-survival-rate-is-climbing-study-says/

The term limit in the U.K. was 28 wks until 1990 when they reduced it to 24 wks for the majority. Bearing in mind latest data, they probably need to reduce it again.

I am pro-choice but I do think the ethics and potential negative consequences need to be considered as heavily as the very valid and important reasons for going ahead.[/quote]
Why though? People are for medical abortions but a baby who is likely to be born with long reaching medical implications due to being born prematurely are fine?

Delectable
You're not alone OP.
The mother, the child and the father all have a right but more so then mother.
A period is an egg much more different than an embryo which is a living and developing being. Most women who have a miscarriage are heartbroken and when a woman decides to have a termination she remembers it for the rest of her life.
That has been the experience of a family member sadly, she has never forgiven herself (disclaimer - she doesn't need to forgive herself, she did what was best for her at the time) and she would be agog to read some of the comments on this thread, about how it's no big deal.

It might not be a big deal to some mumsnetters, who I don't think represent the majority of the popularity strangely as I'm yet to come across the sort of tone here - used in person - but it is a big deal to some people. Possibly not at the time but later on down the line.
OP’s posts: See next | See all

It's also the experience of lots of women who've had unwanted children. And the unwanted children of parents who suffer neglect and alienation their entire lives.

And the beliefs of people in your social circle do not represent the beliefs of the wider population.

You come across as extremely judgemental. Your kind of attitudes will only make it more difficult for people having to make such a difficult decision. Emphasising the loss of one person you know and extrapolating that to all women is not remotely helpful.

A woman is 14x more likely to die from childbirth than from a legal abortion. She should be able to make the choice of taking that risk without guilting and interference from people like you.

Having to wring hands and feel terrible does not make something a free choice and you are being extremely disingenuous by pretending you are pro-choice.

Despite anecdotes people don't use it as a form of contraception, and if they are something is going wrong with the support they are receiving and that should be addressed rather than making them harder to access

I would also follow this up with, if they do see abortion as form of contraception, then clearly they aren't ready/don't want to be a parent so it's kinder that they don't bring a child into the world at that point.

[quote Womeninblack]@VanGoghsDog I used that as an example because I actually read on another pro choice post that this could/should be one of the reasons. Isn’t it you can use any reason to abort? Isn’t it??[/quote]
Yes, any reason or none.

I don't really understand what you're asking, or why you're asking it twice.

It's their choice. Anyway, if you start listing "good" and "bad" reasons people will lie. It doesn't matter what the reason is.

No I don’t. women who want to talk openly about the regret or sadness or trauma they felt about theirs don’t stop and think about whether they’re guilt tripping or judging people like me, who don’t feel those things. And they shouldn’t. Everyone is entitled to voice their feelings honestly and should accept others feel differently.

You made a ‘joke’. Personally I don’t like jokes about things like that. And also if I’m going to discuss something which I know may be upsetting to some, I do stop and think. I don’t think I have the right to just blurt out anything and everything and not give a fuck who I upset. That’s me though and precisely why I would be unlikely to be friends with people that are blasé about things like this.

Stop being so partisan. Learn to have a nuanced discussion that doesn't involve putting people in boxes.

But someone isn't pro-choice if they're okay with it but with arbitrary caveats they have decided on. That's pro-whatever I choose to think is fine. Which is okay, but why not just say that rather than I'm pro-choice buuuut. It has an air of I'm not racist but.....

I find it heartbreaking and very worrying just how de rigeur abortion seems to have become. So sad.

Abortion is a common medical procedure. It has, in fact, ALWAYS been common. It’s been practiced by women in all cultures throughout history.

What’s changed, in this country at least, is that women are increasingly free to talk about it in whatever way they with to, without having their experiences dictated to them. I think it’s brilliant that are speaking up for themselves in spite of those that would silence them.

@Lostsoul91

I would always say have an abortion to someone in a less than perfect situation. Because I've been that person 18 and pregnant to someone who is a total prick and felt I had no other option but to keep the baby. No one sat down and explained my other options or what it would be like.

And it's the biggest regret. I've now got children to a total dick, I do it all on my own, and any chance of me having a family have gone. I'm pro choice. No one should be pushing their "sadness" onto other women and their choices

But it's not pro-choice to tell her to have an abortion any more than it's not pro-choice to tell her to continue with the pregnancy.

Telling her she has options and helping her to explore the implications of each of those options so that she can make the choice that is right for her is pro-choice.

@Womeninblack

You are obviously not pro choice either *@VanGoghsDog*

What?

I honestly can't believe either how blase posters are abs how disposable these pregnancies see to be.

Still a lot less blaze than the blokes chucking their sperm about though no? Are you as aghast at men having sex willy nilly without contraception?

@QuinkWashable

I've had an abortion, and I've taken the morning after pill, and I've taken the contraceptive pill. I don't feel bad about any of them.

Having a baby is a massive decision, a life changer. Having an abortion isn't. It's keeping the status quo.

I think that ideally every woman should actively choose to have a baby (or at least actively choose to take the risk). In every other circumstance, abortion is just keeping life the same as it was before - it really isn't a massive decision unless you want to make it one.

As early as possible, as late as necessary. Always.

I completely agree with you.

I've had 2. No regrets. If I were to find out I was pregnant tomorrow, i'd have a third.

Cannot abide this moralising sanctimonious crap. Your uterus is your business. Nobody elses.

No one aborts at the stage a foetus will survive, unless it's a medical condition. No one

That’s not quite true everywhere. Survival is possible after 21 weeks and probable (better than 50% chance) after 24 weeks. The U.K. allows abortion on request up to 24 weeks and so some of those in the 21-24week window might have survived. In addition, eight US states including NY, NM, CO, NH etc allow abortions on demand up to full term/birth. Canada, China, North Korea all also allow abortion on demand up to full term/birth.

Talking about a sensitive topic in an open and frank manner doesn't mean you don't care.

@QuinkWashable

I honestly can't believe either how blase posters are abs how disposable these pregnancies see to be.

Still a lot less blaze than the blokes chucking their sperm about though no? Are you as aghast at men having sex willy nilly without contraception?

Hah yes that's a very good point.

The reason for that is because some of us are fully aware that women are emotionally blackmailed & told all sorts of nonsense to dissuade them from the abortion they want.
In fact, a couple of weeks ago, a woman on here posted that she was seeking an abortion and the first two replies were telling her she didn't know her own mind. It's unacceptable.

PND is 4 times more likely in unplanned pregnancies, which includes mistimed ones.

<a class="break-all" href="https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=www.mentalhealthtoday.co.uk/unplanned-pregnancy-link-to-postnatal-depression%23:~:text%3DNew%2520mothers%2520who%2520have%2520an,after%2520birth%252C%2520scientists%2520have%2520claimed.&ved=2ahUKEwioo6399pD3AhXJEcAKHfqbCyIQFnoECAQQBQ&usg=AOvVaw0GBtLi1wULRgzdhkyATWkX" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Link

I'm sure it all works out fine though, with no terrible outcomes for the children and definitely no infanticides and suicides.

[quote Robinni]@TalkingCat the rate of prem survival is increasing at 22-23 weeks with active treatment there is a 28-55% survival rate, based on a US study that came out at the beginning of this year.
scopeblog.stanford.edu/2022/02/08/premature-babies-survival-rate-is-climbing-study-says/

The term limit in the U.K. was 28 wks until 1990 when they reduced it to 24 wks for the majority. Bearing in mind latest data, they probably need to reduce it again.

I am pro-choice but I do think the ethics and potential negative consequences need to be considered as heavily as the very valid and important reasons for going ahead.[/quote]
No baby can survive at 22 weeks, let alone 23. It's simply not possible. That 'paper' appears to be from a religious pro-life view. Less than one percent of babies survive long term at 24 weeks. The term limit won't be reduced because no one can fast forward gestation and change the rate a foetus develops. Even at 23 weeks, if it survives long-term, it will have permanent lifelong serious disabilities.

This, is the REALITY of a 23 week old foetus. Please note at this age, they don't even have actual nerve receptors or sentience. I cannot for some reason attach the image, so I have copied out the text that went with the image: *Hello I'm a micro preemie born at 23 weeks. One of my ears fell off, my genital organs are inside out, my nerves are now forced to develop exposed to the elements and every touch starts to increasingly hurt. I have a blood clot, that is 1cm in diameter in my tiny little heart and poop coming out of areas poop just shouldn't come out of, not to mention have seizures every few hours and my pituitary gland is damaged beyond repair, to the point I'll never be able to regulate my own body temperature for the rest of my painful life.
But I'm glad God sent me to suffer in excruciating pain, to make you happy and parade me around like some kind of miracle for attention and donations. After all, you're only pro life and not pro quality of life.

Infants born at 22-23 weeks gestation have a 1 to 7% chance of survival. Of those survivors, greater than 99% will suffer profound neurodevelopmental impairment. By profound neurodevelopmental impairment, I do not mean the child will have a learning disability, or need to walk with canes, or have mild cerebral palsy. I mean the child will suffer from intractable seizures, need a feeding tube because of being unable to swallow, have varying degrees of blindness and deafness, have spastic quadriplegia and be wheelchair bound, never speak, never crawl, never walk, never run, etc. Thousands of micro-preemies die in excruciating death, so that pro-life groups can parade and misrepresent the few survivors around, only because they think abortion is icky. Let this sink in for a while...*

Having something like abortion a taboo subject is only going to lead to women suffering in silence - either having abortions and feeling shame after and not discussing things or going through with pregnancies because they are worried about taking other options for judgement

@HRTQueen

It’s an option

Why shouldn’t it be mentioned or discussed it’s not a dirty secret that women have terminations or anything to be ashamed or or feel guilty over

And op you are not pro choice stop being so disingenuous

Bla bla bla...

To be fair that joke is grim, if I heard someone saying it I'd think they were pretty weird.

Are you as aghast at men having sex willy nilly without contraception?

Not aimed at me but I am, yes. I’ve already said that on this thread. I find people not using contraception completely pathetic and irresponsible. I could never have had sex with a man like that.