To be shocked by how blasé alot of MNers are about abortion

[Nothanksloveimfine]

Yes its healthcare, yes free and safe abortion is completely necessary because the alternative doesn't bare thinking about, yes everybody has a right to choose what's best for them and yes I am pro choice (whilst being explicitly pro life with regards to my own pregnancies)

With all that said and done, I am quite alarmed at how a sizable % of MNers are so blase about abortions. Whenever a poster is talking about being pregnant with an unplanned baby and in a less than perfect situation, I see alot of posters urging her to just have a termination like its a routine stroll through the park.

I've just read a heartbreaking article which is being discussed at the minute and some of the replies on that thread are so cold. It made me cry and I'm wondering how the hell people can read that and not be impacted by it, completely steamrolling over the tragic loss of life by saying things like "that's a rare case" abortion is a good thing bla bla bla.

Does anybody else share my view or am I the odd one out?

It's like people are so determined to bang the "right to abort" drum, they have no regard for the babies whatsoever.

Abortion can be totally necessary but it's also pretty sad IMO.

You can care about the mother without being so cold and dismissive of the baby they were carrying.

Caring about the babies doesn't mean I hate women, I am one.

Yes I've name changed because I don't expect this will go down well here.

You're not alone OP.
The mother, the child and the father all have a right but more so then mother.
A period is an egg much more different than an embryo which is a living and developing being. Most women who have a miscarriage are heartbroken and when a woman decides to have a termination she remembers it for the rest of her life.

"You can agree with, even fight for the right for women to have safe abortions without shame and still see abortion as something sad and less than ideal."

This is pretty much how I feel about it

[quote Hopspinach]@Blogblogblogblog It's precisely such cold responses like that which make it impossible to properly support women who have had or are considering an abortion.[/quote]
That’s an overall issue for anyone posting on an online forum though, isn’t it? We don’t ever know the true circumstances of someone posting, or what would truly be better for them. What constitutes ‘support’ is open to interpretation in itself, what is supportive to one person can be devastating to another.

All we can do is offer our opinions, usually based on our own lives and experiences that may or may not be at all relevant to an OP.

@Nothanksloveimfine

A few weeks later I went to an event with a friend, walked in and it was empty, and I joked it was "deader than my aborted foetus" so yes, I am blase about it in real life too.

Sorry but thats just disgusting.

I don't really care whether you or anyone else thinks its disgusting. It's not a big deal to me. I don't go around telling people not to feel sad or regretful about their abortions and I've got every right to make gross jokes about mine if I want.

@Nothanksloveimfine

I agree with a PP that some are weirdly blasé about having children

You're allowed to think that, but what you shouldn't be allowed to do is infer that somebody should have a termination.

It's ironic that I and people who agree with what I'm saying are called pro lifers, intolerant, judgemental etc. When very, very few (if any - i dont see any) of us are saying that abortion isn't a necessary right to have and the right to access free and safe abortion isn't important.

I, and people like me, support women's right to choose what's best for her at the time.

The people on the threads I speak about, telling posters they should have a termination and implying its the only thing to do, are not supporting a woman's right to choose, are they?

The women who do want to proceed with a pregnancy despite not being well off by MN standards, could do with a bigger house or have recently been left by an unfaithful man deserve to have their choices respected and not be made to feel irresponsible/selfish for making that choice.

Unless somebody has asked for advice WRT continuing a pregnancy, it is fucked up to be telling them they should have an abortion or that an abortion is the 'best thing to do'

That is my point which I stand by and it does not make me pro life by a long shot. I respect women who terminate and women who proceed with unplanned/less than ideal pregnancies in equal measure.

The stuck up bunch who look down upon WC women raising the baby alone, without much money or an abundance of space are the judgemental ones.

I agree with PP that class has a definite part to play.

I haven't implied anyone should have an abortion, if someone posts a thread asking for advice on here why shouldn't people mention it as an option? Many people indeed do post to have their ideas and thoughts backed up, but that's not life is it. Also you've misunderstood PPs comment on class

My friend had an abortion at the age of 20. It was absolutely the right thing for her and the baby. I have no doubt about that. However it has impacted her whole life. Even today, with three healthy kids, she is extremely sad about it whilst knowing she did the right thing.
So, yes, i understand what you are saying. I am pro choice 100%. But I don't think it is a decision that should be taken in a blasé fashion. People don't always appreciate how much it can affect them both at the time but also in years to come. That's not to say they shouldn't do it. But to say 'it's just some cells' is a bit misguided I think.

@TalkingCat some abort at very advanced stages of pregnancy, as far as that if the child were born prematurely it may have a chance to survive. I don’t think the ethical considerations there are on the same page as going for a root canal.

Can I emphasise that I is no way suggested that there was a causal relationship between the abortions in younger life and the fertility issues in later life. Many women can and do have multiple pregnancies after they have an abortion. I want to make that VERY clear.

The subject of the post was about MNers being blasé about abortion.
What I’m talking about is a group of women who were seen to be extremely blasé having in some cases multiple abortions almost as a means to contraception. They were all middle to upper class (to weigh in on the class issues discussed) with their main reason for aborting being either they or their partners didn’t have the extremely lavish income that they desired just yet. So they put it off and put it off and went through all these procedures. And in the end came to very much regret it and have mental and physical health problems feeling bad about it because of their later circumstances. They cared not a jot and felt they’d made the right decision earlier. Then later were an absolute mess.

'As early as possible and as late as necessary.'

I find this deeply compassionate. Thank you to those who posted it.

For me I do whole heartedly believe we have the right to choose but I do think the starting point should be of keeping the pregnancy and only aborting if it truly would be untenable to carry on with the pregnancy such as if the pregnancy was the product of rape or that the child or mothers health were in physical danger as a starter.
I don’t think lack of money or the circumstances aren’t ideal are a reason.
I was completely shocked on a thread that people were agreeing that the op should get a termination now as then get pregnant in 4 months time because the timing would be better.

I know if abortion were available when my mother was pregnant with me, I know I would never have been born

Most women who have a miscarriage are heartbroken and when a woman decides to have a termination she remembers it for the rest of her life.

What is your source for this? Remembering something isn't negative for everyone, I remember that I made a great choice. Also pretty sure carrying an unwanted child to term to either have the baby adopted (which can be very traumatic along with the physical risks of pregnancy and childbirth), or having a child you didn't want is more of a burden and impact on your life than remembering you had an abortion.

@Terfydactyl

Abortion is a choice but one which many women find extremely difficult and should be treated sensitively

If it was classed as a normal medical procedure and there wasn't all the angst surrounding it, maybe lots of women wouldnt find it difficult. Let's be honest raising a child to 18 and beyond is a lot more difficult.

I had a termination and I just knew it was not a good idea to have that baby at that time. I had no angst about it, i dont miss it. The procedure was horrible and that's my abiding memory of the whole thing.
Should I be castigated cos I didnt particularly feel bad?

And even if abortion was banned, it would still happen. Surely its better to have a fuss free termination than have to go find a back street one or get dodgy tablets off the internet.

And for anyone who thinks that all the babies should be born, who will look after them? Theres already far too many kids in care, we already know the care system gives worse outcomes. And who will pay for all the extra care homes. And it's worse still for the disabled babies.

But the truth is, it is not simple a "normal medical procedure". Even those who support abortion up to birth surely wouldn't argue that an abortion is just like having a mole or an organ removed. Dismissing or denying the emotional struggle a woman might go through to arrive at such a decision makes it impossible to really support and empathise with her. You simply can't comfort a woman who is mourning the loss of her child by telling her "just try and think about it as some impersonal tissue". It's not about castigating, it's about listening to women and using language that actually enables you to sympathise with her and share in her grief, if she is grieving.

If you're suggesting we just manipulate the language used around abortion in order to force people to think about it in a certain way, that is called brain-washing.

I don't really care whether you or anyone else thinks its disgusting. It's not a big deal to me. I don't go around telling people not to feel sad or regretful about their abortions and I've got every right to make gross jokes about mine if I want.

So you don’t care about upsetting any women who may have overheard your ‘joke’?

@Delectable

You're not alone OP. The mother, the child and the father all have a right but more so then mother. A period is an egg much more different than an embryo which is a living and developing being. Most women who have a miscarriage are heartbroken and when a woman decides to have a termination she remembers it for the rest of her life.

That has been the experience of a family member sadly, she has never forgiven herself (disclaimer - she doesn't need to forgive herself, she did what was best for her at the time) and she would be agog to read some of the comments on this thread, about how it's no big deal.

It might not be a big deal to some mumsnetters, who I don't think represent the majority of the popularity strangely as I'm yet to come across the sort of tone here - used in person - but it is a big deal to some people. Possibly not at the time but later on down the line.

Most women who have a miscarriage are heartbroken and when a woman decides to have a termination she remembers it for the rest of her life.

And once again, someone thinking their own opinions reflect the lived reality of other people. How about you let people determine that for themselves? There is space in the arena of human experience for someone to mourn a miscarriage, and another woman to celebrate an abortion.

I remember my abortion in the same way I remember all medical procedures I have. Based on what you’re saying, going to the dentist ‘lives with me forever’ because I recall it.

Remembering something does not mean something is an inherently emotional experience.

@Patchbatch Pretty sure recent stats with a decent sample size from BPAS showed well over 90% of women had no regrets about their decision when asked 5 years following the event.

@Kennykenkencat

For me I do whole heartedly believe we have the right to choose but I do think the starting point should be of keeping the pregnancy and only aborting if it truly would be untenable to carry on with the pregnancy such as if the pregnancy was the product of rape or that the child or mothers health were in physical danger as a starter. I don’t think lack of money or the circumstances aren’t ideal are a reason. I was completely shocked on a thread that people were agreeing that the op should get a termination now as then get pregnant in 4 months time because the timing would be better.

I know if abortion were available when my mother was pregnant with me, I know I would never have been born

So you don't really believe women should have the right to choose then?

@beattieedny

I agree, op. It should be safe, legal and rare. However its become almost nothing to many. It's not 'just a medical procedure'. It is killing, but I think it is justified if early on and rare.

How do you determine "rare" as part of the justification?

I've had one. So, for me, aged 53, that's rare. Would I therefore be banned from a second one? Or is two in, say, thirty five fertile years still "rare"?

Or does the GP have a cap? "Sorry, I've referred five this week, so I'm risking not being in the "rare" category and that's not allowed"?

I'm often shocked about how blasé many MNers are about bringing a baby into bad, unstable circumstances, with men they barely know or know to be awful, when it will plainly have negative consequences for both them and the DC they have already, which has far more significant and far -reaching consequences than the vast majority of terminations.

I think far too many women simply knee-jerk Abortions Are Bad And Wrong and since I'm not a Bad Person, I can't have an Abortion.

I don't really care whether you or anyone else thinks its disgusting. It's not a big deal to me. I don't go around telling people not to feel sad or regretful about their abortions and I've got every right to make gross jokes about mine if I want.

Yeah it's totally fine to make gross jokes, regardless of who it upsets, so long as you get your giggle.

I bet you're giggling alone though, and anybody who does laugh along with you will only be doing so out of awkwardness. I don't know one person IRL who would hear that and find it funny. You're a bit twisted really.

Isn’t it something like 1/3 women have had an abortion by the age of 45, so I’m not really sure this sucking teeth hand wringing is really necessary.

@Robinni No one aborts at the stage a foetus will survive, unless it's a medical condition. No one.

when a woman decides to have a termination she remembers it for the rest of her life

I also remember..
violent diarrhoea after eating bad fish
getting shit on by a bird
dropping a washing machine on my leg
Etc etc etc

It doesn’t make it emotional or damaging because you remember it 😂

@PlainJaneEyre yes I am aware of what went on as I’ve had several discussions with them and they explained they were blasé and knew in their group if they went in and gave a certain script they would tick the box and be given the abortion. It’s not my views on their competency - it’s their own.

They discussed in depth how they felt they couldn’t turn to their families and wider social circle, how they couldn’t discuss properly how they felt, they just needed to get rid of the problem.

My hope is that standards and society in general are more supportive today whichever way a woman wants to go.

I would always say have an abortion to someone in a less than perfect situation. Because I've been that person 18 and pregnant to someone who is a total prick and felt I had no other option but to keep the baby. No one sat down and explained my other options or what it would be like.

And it's the biggest regret. I've now got children to a total dick, I do it all on my own, and any chance of me having a family have gone. I'm pro choice. No one should be pushing their "sadness" onto other women and their choices

For me personally, it all completely depends on the woman.

If I had of had an abortion because I wanted one, had no regrets and felt it was the right decision, I wouldn't want people to feel sad about the situation.

However if I was coerced into an abortion, hadn't thought it through or did it for the wrong reasons and regretted it, then I would feel sad for me too.

The ending of a pregnancy isn't always sad. Sometimes it's freeing for the woman. Sometimes it's kinder for the baby. Sometimes it's life saving for the woman. But then again, sometimes it is sad.

I do agree with OP that people shouldn't suggest someone abort a baby when they have never asked for peoples opinions or, even worse, when someone clearly states they do not want to abort their baby. It is absolutely no one else's business.

That said, being pregnant is very emotional and difficult (at least it was for me). I don't think people always think things all the way through. If the father ends up being abusive, manipulative or down right nasty, then the woman has to consider that she and the baby will be tied to this man forever. And, without a reason not to, the father will have unsupervised access to the child so could subject child to abuse, neglect, try to turn child against mother, take child without mothers' knowledge, lead to future emotional and psychological damage by not being there for child when they were needed, not contributing financially....the list is endless!

I fell pregnant in less than ideal circumstances. Wasn't even living with then DP at the time, rented a small 2 bed flat with a friend, worked in a hotel on a really crap wage. If I had of completely detached emotionally from the situation I could see why having an abortion would be seen as the right choice for me. However, I very much wanted my baby and I would have felt very upset if people had told me over and over again to abort. I would have felt very protective of my baby and lashed out.