To be shocked by how blasé alot of MNers are about abortion

[Nothanksloveimfine]

Yes its healthcare, yes free and safe abortion is completely necessary because the alternative doesn't bare thinking about, yes everybody has a right to choose what's best for them and yes I am pro choice (whilst being explicitly pro life with regards to my own pregnancies)

With all that said and done, I am quite alarmed at how a sizable % of MNers are so blase about abortions. Whenever a poster is talking about being pregnant with an unplanned baby and in a less than perfect situation, I see alot of posters urging her to just have a termination like its a routine stroll through the park.

I've just read a heartbreaking article which is being discussed at the minute and some of the replies on that thread are so cold. It made me cry and I'm wondering how the hell people can read that and not be impacted by it, completely steamrolling over the tragic loss of life by saying things like "that's a rare case" abortion is a good thing bla bla bla.

Does anybody else share my view or am I the odd one out?

It's like people are so determined to bang the "right to abort" drum, they have no regard for the babies whatsoever.

Abortion can be totally necessary but it's also pretty sad IMO.

You can care about the mother without being so cold and dismissive of the baby they were carrying.

Caring about the babies doesn't mean I hate women, I am one.

Yes I've name changed because I don't expect this will go down well here.

I'm not sure that being pro choice as long as the woman feels guilty for the rest of her life is pro choice at all.

Having an abortion isn't the massive life changing decision that having a baby is.

I had an abortion and my life went exactly back to how it was. No guilt, just relief, and no regrets at all.

@Skelligsfeathers

I think a lot of people on mumsnet ( and in life) are incredibly blase about having a baby. The whole " there is no perfect time" " babies are always a blessing" " it will all work out in the end" attitude is quite dangerous I think. An unplanned pregnancy where the relationship is non existent or violent or where there is no money or inadequate housing is not a blessing. Every child should be a wanted child.

Saying you are pro choice but adding the caveat that the woman who chooses abortion should also beat her cheat and weep and wail and feel guilty forever is disgusting.

You make the choice for yourself and stay out of other people's reproductive lives.

At what income level are we allowed children? Inadequate housing makes it sound like your talking about temporary accommodation or something, but my past experiences on Mumsnet suggest 'inadequate housing' is anyone who's renting.

Abusive situations are obviously different to just not being exactly where you want to be, not being settled. It's not in the same category

The only reason a woman needs to have an abortion is to want an abortion. It doesn't matter if her future self in 20 years might not want one, or whether things could be worked out to accommodate a child. All that matters is that in that moment, she wants one.

For SOME women it may be traumatic and difficult. That is valid if that's how they feel. For other women, it is none of those things. That is equally valid. Those who felt guilt, sadness, regret or trauma are absolutely entitled to their feelings but they have NO right to try and impose these emotions onto anyone else, or say that abortion is only acceptable if these emotions are attached. That is policing women's autonomy. As it's often said on here, don't like abortion? Then don't have one. What other people choose and feel is absolutely none of your business.

I had one nearly a decade ago and the only thing I felt any trauma around was the potential of being sick –I have emetophobia so the idea of morning sickness terrified me. I chose a surgical abortion and panicked that the anaesthetic might make me throw up. That's literally all I was concerned about, because being sick is a big deal for me. That's not why I had an abortion –I had one because I didn't want a child. That's literally it. It was never in question. I can't describe the sense of relief I felt when I came round and was no longer pregnant. A few weeks later I went to an event with a friend, walked in and it was empty, and I joked it was "deader than my aborted foetus" so yes, I am blase about it in real life too. I've publicly written about my experience in a national publication so I have zero shame in feeling detachment. By the time I had the procedure I was nearly 12 weeks, so yes, I guess you could say it was starting to be "a life" if you're that way inclined as it starts growing limbs or whatever – but that really doesn't matter, all that mattered was that I didn't want it inside me, and while it's in my body, the choice is entirely mine. If foetuses become capable of birthing themselves at any gestation and having independent thought and free will, come ask me again. I'm sure some people might find this distasteful but my feelings are no less valid than someone who thinks differently.

I HAVE HAD AN ABORTION AND FEEL NO GUILT.

I HAVE HAD AN ABORTION AND HAD NO ISSUES GETTING PREGNANT.

JUST PUTTING THIS HERE.

Your caps lock appears to be stuck on.

It's not 'just a medical procedure'.

But that’s exactly what it is for a lot of women, myself included. The emotional weight you personally put on it is relevant only to you.

Theres no but in im pro choice you either are or you arent

and its not a baby its a foetus

Sadly I know several women of my mothers generation who all had abortions in their 20s, some of them multiple times because they didn’t have the perfect circumstances. They all wept and wailed in their 40s when they couldn’t get pregnant

Many women - most? - will find it harder to conceive in their 40s than in their 20s. If they were as ignorant about that reality of their bodies as you appear to be, then better education might have prevented the unwanted pregnancies.

I'm wondering how the hell people can read that and not be impacted by it, completely steamrolling over the tragic loss of life by saying things like "that's a rare case" abortion is a good thing bla bla bla.

I'm not connected to the woman or baby in that case so why would I cry over it?

I'm capable of seeing how tragic it is and still thinking it's a very uncommon and unlikely situation which should not be used to skew the debate on abortion.

Everyone has different emotional reactions to things. People are just, you know, different.

How can you come on here and spout fake facts like that - I'm talking to those who say abortion is more dangerous than pregnancy.

There are, on average, about 10 maternal deaths in every 100,000 deliveries.

The maternal death rate from abortion is about 0.6 in 100,000.

This is an example from the USA, obviously varies wildly between countries.

The repercussions on women, and their families, of pursuing a pregnancy no matter what, is far more dangerous.

I agree with a PP that some are weirdly blasé about having children

You're allowed to think that, but what you shouldn't be allowed to do is infer that somebody should have a termination.

It's ironic that I and people who agree with what I'm saying are called pro lifers, intolerant, judgemental etc. When very, very few (if any - i dont see any) of us are saying that abortion isn't a necessary right to have and the right to access free and safe abortion isn't important.

I, and people like me, support women's right to choose what's best for her at the time.

The people on the threads I speak about, telling posters they should have a termination and implying its the only thing to do, are not supporting a woman's right to choose, are they?

The women who do want to proceed with a pregnancy despite not being well off by MN standards, could do with a bigger house or have recently been left by an unfaithful man deserve to have their choices respected and not be made to feel irresponsible/selfish for making that choice.

Unless somebody has asked for advice WRT continuing a pregnancy, it is fucked up to be telling them they should have an abortion or that an abortion is the 'best thing to do'

That is my point which I stand by and it does not make me pro life by a long shot. I respect women who terminate and women who proceed with unplanned/less than ideal pregnancies in equal measure.

The stuck up bunch who look down upon WC women raising the baby alone, without much money or an abundance of space are the judgemental ones.

I agree with PP that class has a definite part to play.

I had an abortion and it wasn’t some traumatic event for me, you honestly sound a bit like “you can chose to do it but you have to acknowledge that it’s a terrible thing to do”
If i thought it was some terrible sad thing I wouldn’t have done it and I’m sure that’s the same for lots of women. I thought I was some kind of psychopath for ages because it didn’t affect me and the narrative is that it should be some traumatic thing. It’s a harmful narrative tbh

@Ijustreallywantacat

I have stated several times that I disagree with that just as much. It is also imposing your own perspective on a situation.

But what is the massive difference between ‘If I was in your shoes I would terminate.’ and ‘the best thing to do is to terminate.’?

They’re the same opinion! They’re advising the same thing! I don’t understand that at all.

All I’m hearing from you and the OP is that you are in theory ‘pro-choice’ but you want to micromanage and police the language around it and make sure everyone is sad and guilty about it. It should be allowed, sure, but don’t mention it!

Most confused.

They’re the same opinion! They’re advising the same thing! I don’t understand that at all.

Saying I would terminate in those circumstances is not the same as saying you should terminate. One recognises that the best choice for you may not be the best choice for the other person whereas the other is telling the other person what the best choice for them is.

All I’m hearing from you and the OP is that you are in theory ‘pro-choice’ but you want to micromanage and police the language around it and make sure everyone is sad and guilty about it. It should be allowed, sure, but don’t mention it!

If that's what you are hearing from me, I suggest you re-read my posts. I have no interest in policing anyone's language. However, I am entitled to my opinion that using language in a particular way is not necessarily the best approach and can be counter-productive.

I don't think anyone should feel sad and guilty about an abortion. I feel no guilt or sadness about the abortion I had. However, the reality is, many women do and that is often because they have made a choice that was not the right one for them or they have not had the opportunity to explore their feelings and come to terms with their decision. Understanding their choices and making the decision that is best for them is what is important.

I absolutely think abortion should be discussed. I think anyone who faces a crisis pregnancy should be fully aware of their options. However, I don't think it is constructive to tell people which option they should choose, whether that option is to continue with the pregnancy or to terminate the pregnancy.

I had an abortion when I was a teenager which I regret to this day but I felt I had no other option at that time, so as much as I hate that it happened, I know that it probably WAS the right decision for me at that time.

Because of my experience, I am 100% pro-choice. It's absolutely nobody else's business what a woman does with her body.

If you take away access to abortion, you don't stop it from happening, you just stop safe abortion from happening.

Oh, and for all the doom-mongers, I went on to have three more children - one in my 20s, one in my 30s and one in my 40s. I fell pregnant very very easily (pretty much the first month each time). My fertility was not affected and neither was I served up a giant slice of karma. What a horrible thing to imply.

*Famous last words. I hope you're right, but as the men's in women's spaces, women thrown out rape survivor's groups in Bristol UK, and women silence and threatened with rape and death prove, there is no longer such a thing as inalienable rights. Not any more. How many of us women on this thread ever thought we would see the day were we were told we had to have men in our toilets and if we complained we were told to shut up?

No rights can ever be taken for granted. Not anymore. Eternal vigilance is the price for these 'rights' that can be taken away at any time depending on the current fad or mood. Please don't assume the UK won't have abortion rights to stripped down, too. Nothing can be taken for granted, not anymore.*

FFS, this has nothing to do with trans issues, this is just you dragging your pet hate into the thread at every opportunity.

@AskingforaBaskin

To me it would be the same as having a mole removed. A mass of unwanted cells that could or would cause harm if not dealt with.

At what point does it stop being "a mass of unwanted cells"?

@TalkingCat

I had a consultation with Marie Stopes and one session of counselling, I was surprised to realise that the supposed unbiased counsellor was very much swaying me toward abortion aswell

Perhaps because she could see something as a detached person that you couldn't.

The whole point of non-directive counselling is that it is non-directive. If the counsellor can't keep their opinion out of the discussion, they are in the wrong job.

Lots of you will swear until the cows come home that it doesn't happen but we all know it does

It can actually be even worse than you've said, OP; there was a thread which remains seared on my brain, where a discussion about how late abortion should be allowed included someone saying that even neonatal infanticide should be permitted if the mother had changed her mind

I'm another who supports abortion within the law, but it almost seemed a shame that this was deleted, if only because it showed just how far some are prepared to go

@Nothanksloveimfine

This 100%. Nobody here is campaigning to end abortion. I fully support the laws over here. What I hate is so called pro-choices who feel they can undermine the other choices besides abortion, and use the label of pro-choice to pretend to be supportive of women

Again, any thread mentioning a woman under about 30, or any woman not MN-approved, Is flooded with people going on about how irresponsible and such.

On a separate note, I do think PP who said about Ireland's 'celebration' is probably right, that it's about a collective relief. That makes sense and I fully get that.

@whumpthereitis

But otherwise there really does need to be serious consideration about it because rather than being a solution, the consequences can be far reaching and cause long term trauma more so than going ahead with the pregnancy.

Abortion is inherently more traumatic and has greater long term consequences than going ahead with an unwanted pregnancy? You’ve based this on what evidence?

By seeing many of my Mums social circle go through decades worth of dissatisfaction in life, some of them suffering mental and physical health problems due to stress and/or the fertility treatments they had. And overall being enormously remorseful as a group about their decisions.

It’s a fine line; would it have been worse for them to go ahead with a pregnancy earlier where they had supportive partners and sufficient financial means. Or face the regret and health consequences.

It can work out very well such as for @Butitsnotfunnyisititsserious

@Maisa45 I think that’s the difference, for my Mums friends they were in a time where the “ticking clock” wasn’t as emphasised as it is today and abortion was only recently legalised (1968). It was like a new fad and all about choice with maybe less regulation and pastoral care than now. They didn’t acknowledge that they may not conceive again. They were happy with their decisions really until late 30s/40s and then have gone through 3 decades of difficulty, some managing it better than others.

The paramount thing of course is that women are fully informed and supported with their decision before and after whatever they choose to do.

I suppose for most women, having abortions before 12 weeks, they do not mourn the loss of a grape sized cluster of cells. It's interesting you've used the term baby. A baby is a baby when it's born. Before that it's a foetus, and at the stage when most people realise they're pregnant it's a blastocyst or an embryo. You seem to be suggesting women should treat this in the same way as a baby dying at term, or as a newborn, so I'm not sure what you expect the response to be as that's simply unreasonable. Have you had an abortion? I think like so many controversial things you are far more judgemental before you have personal experience of it. Also bear in mind that the majority of people will appear more direct and braver in voicing their opinions as the nature of an online forum means there's no confrontation or repercussions.

A few weeks later I went to an event with a friend, walked in and it was empty, and I joked it was "deader than my aborted foetus" so yes, I am blase about it in real life too.

Sorry but thats just disgusting.

@Robinni

To reply re. my previous post, not saying people got their just desserts. The context would be that these women got pregnant in the 70s/80s. Some were shamed as they weren’t married and felt obligated to go ahead with it, some had brief relationships that resulted in pregnancy. The attitude was abortion would solve it all and it was taken as a given that pregnancy would be easy later, which they believed because they were young and naive.

My point is they were unsupported and weren’t properly counselled. And I still feel i that support and proper counselling for women is severely lacking. It’s a huge decision once there is a viable pregnancy, one you have to live with for the rest of your life, that can have negative health consequences.

It isn’t going to the dentist.

@Robinni You mention dentist. On other forums, it's often cited that abortion is safer than a root canal. Or a Colonoscopy. It is certainly safer than pregnancy, and childbirth. Abortion is 14 times safer than pregnancy and childbirth. The 'negative health consequences' of continuing a pregnancy are far, far, FAR greater than an abortion.

Counselling wouldn't have helped those women because it's almost impossible to get pregnant in your 40s anyway. And even if you're a virgin in your 20s or 30s and never had an abortion there is still no guarantee you will conceive. There is never any guarantee that any woman will conceive. So in this case, the women's abortions are red herrings and they wouldn't have been able to conceive even if they never had the abortions.

When thinking about abortion, I always think about my situation. Both my DH and I agree that we are done having kids, I could never imagine going back to the newborn days now mine are older, and the financial implications and it would basically really mess up our lives. I am so glad we have easy access to abortion as I know that if I got pregnant now (I mean, it's highly unlikely for many reasons but you never know) I would be able to get it sorted.

However, at the same time, if I ever actually think about having an abortion it really upsets me. I hate the idea of it, I certainly wouldn't be skipping to the clinic, the idea of a life that is potentially a sibling for my children then just not being. It's sad for me.

But what would be even more sad and even more horrific is the idea of not getting any choice at all in the matter and being forced to go through with a pregnancy and give birth when I don't necessarily want to. And for that to apply to all women who don't want to continue with a pregnancy - for all women to be denied that choice. It's horrendous.

I agree with you op.
Just because some people have had them and haven’t regretted it or felt an ounce of sadness about it, it doesn’t mean that should be or is the universal experience.

[quote Brefugee]@Crimesean i posted the WHO list because even though the OP says she's pro-choice that's not the vibe i get from her. But this thread isn't only about her, it is about others, and there is a lot of misinformation about what abortion actually is, what it is for and why it can be vital. It is always worth reading that info.

It is only the best option if the woman concerned decides it is. Stating that "if I was in your situation I would terminate" is perfectly fine. Stating, as many do, that abortion is the best option, is not fine as that is imposing your perspective on the situation.

Semantics. Everything anyone posts here is their opinion unless they are explicitly quoting someone else.[/quote]
Semantics matter.