To be shocked by how blasé alot of MNers are about abortion

[Nothanksloveimfine]

Yes its healthcare, yes free and safe abortion is completely necessary because the alternative doesn't bare thinking about, yes everybody has a right to choose what's best for them and yes I am pro choice (whilst being explicitly pro life with regards to my own pregnancies)

With all that said and done, I am quite alarmed at how a sizable % of MNers are so blase about abortions. Whenever a poster is talking about being pregnant with an unplanned baby and in a less than perfect situation, I see alot of posters urging her to just have a termination like its a routine stroll through the park.

I've just read a heartbreaking article which is being discussed at the minute and some of the replies on that thread are so cold. It made me cry and I'm wondering how the hell people can read that and not be impacted by it, completely steamrolling over the tragic loss of life by saying things like "that's a rare case" abortion is a good thing bla bla bla.

Does anybody else share my view or am I the odd one out?

It's like people are so determined to bang the "right to abort" drum, they have no regard for the babies whatsoever.

Abortion can be totally necessary but it's also pretty sad IMO.

You can care about the mother without being so cold and dismissive of the baby they were carrying.

Caring about the babies doesn't mean I hate women, I am one.

Yes I've name changed because I don't expect this will go down well here.

Sadly I know several women of my mothers generation who all had abortions in their 20s, some of them multiple times because they didn’t have the perfect circumstances. They all wept and wailed in their 40s when they couldn’t get pregnant and one spent 50k on ivf to no avail.

Yet plenty of women who have abortions go on to have children, and many who didn't struggle to conceive in their 40s. None of which changes the fact these women didn't want children in their 20s for whatever reason. As others have said you seem to be suggesting it's their fault, their just desserts which is vile.

@LuckySantangelo35 it’s a life if you feel it’s a life. From my point of view, an embryo is life. When I had 4 losses in the first trimester, the thing that hurt me the most were doctors diminishing ‘my baby’ into a bunch of cells or a product. Just because that’s your view does not mean universally every woman perceives an embryo the same way

Strongly agree that abortion is very much a class issue.

Maybe not on an individual level, but certainly on a population level.

@Octomore

Sadly I know several women of my mothers generation who all had abortions in their 20s, some of them multiple times because they didn’t have the perfect circumstances. They all wept and wailed in their 40s when they couldn’t get pregnant and one spent 50k on ivf to no avail.

You sound almost gleeful about this, as if that was the punishment they had to expect.

There is nothing wrong with having an abortion, in your 20s or at any other time.

@Octomore not gleeful, but I know at the time they were extremely blasé about it and took it for granted that they could just get rid of the pregnancy and have one whenever they wanted. They subsequently felt traumatised but the decisions their younger selves had made. One out of several was successful eventually but had multiple miscarriages, 3 pregnancies in quick succession and still suffers very significant mental health problems.

I think women should have counselling. Of course if you have health problems, money problems, something wrong with the baby, have been raped etc. Abortion is logical.

But otherwise there really does need to be serious consideration about it because rather than being a solution, the consequences can be far reaching and cause long term trauma more so than going ahead with the pregnancy.

That isn’t acknowledged enough really.

In pro choice too OP, but like you, I understand abortion, isn't simple, straightforward or something to be taken lightly.

It can be though. It absolutely can be. There is no reason for it to be a guilt ridden, hand wringing experience. If you don't want to be pregnant anymore you don't have to be. It can be that simple and straightforward and that's OK.

In my situation I had sepsis, I had been bleeding for about a week at that point. I went to the hospital and was scanned. There was a heartbeat. The Dr explained to me that I really needed an abortion, the sepsis wouldn't clear without one. I agreed straightaway. I didn't want to die and leave my children motherless. Then I went to the ward where I was supposed to take the tablets and endured a 10min conversation from a midwife about how maybe it wasn't too late, where there is a heartbeat there is hope, just keep on the IV antibiotics. I was burning up, I was so lethargic I could barely get out of bed and this midwife was trying to persuade me against abortion? I remember just crying and asking her to please leave me alone and she kept telling me it would be OK, the antibiotics would work and I would have a lovely baby. In the end tablets didn't work fast enough and I had to have an emergency d&c and ended up in icu for 2 days.

So you may have felt pressured into abortion OP but the other situation also exists where women are pressured into keeping the pregnancy. I was quite literally dying, alone(covid times) and this woman took it upon herself to try and persuade me to keep a pregnancy that was never going to survive because I wasn't going to. The 'pro-life' movement is disgusting and harmful and I will always advocate not just for choice but for guilt free choice,my case is extreme but there is no shame in choosing yourself, you don't owe anyone.

[quote LegMeChicken]@Robinni it’s hard for ANYBODY to get pregnant in their 40’s. And 50’s… no need to say it.
Nothing to do with the abortions, everything to do with common sense[/quote]
I don't think you're meant to point out the obvious. Of course it's going to be harder to get pregnant the older a woman is. That's just biology.

I think a lot of people on mumsnet ( and in life) are incredibly blase about having a baby.
The whole " there is no perfect time" " babies are always a blessing" " it will all work out in the end" attitude is quite dangerous I think.
An unplanned pregnancy where the relationship is non existent or violent or where there is no money or inadequate housing is not a blessing.
Every child should be a wanted child.

Saying you are pro choice but adding the caveat that the woman who chooses abortion should also beat her cheat and weep and wail and feel guilty forever is disgusting.

You make the choice for yourself and stay out of other people's reproductive lives.

[quote GalactatingGoddess]@RampantIvy This is really tricky as it's such an individual and highly emotive area!

Many people might think of an embryo of 4/6/8 weeks as just a collection of cells but a huge amount don't either! Hence the boards we have dedicated to miscarriage no matter the stage - those women very much felt their babies were babies no matter the stage they lost them.

I believe in abortion rights up to a certain point, and generally speaking women who are getting abortions do not take this lightly, as whatever you believe it is a huge decision that can have lasting implications for SOME women (emotional/mental/physical).

[/quote]
Scientifically it is a bunch of cells, it has no consciousness at that point and although the 'building blocks' are present it could not survive outside of the womb, and does not have the features that fundamentally will make the baby. In terms of how that's viewed really depends, I had a miscarriage and was upset at what could have been, the what ifs, not the cells I passed themselves. Those same cells for someone who wants an abortion are the same- potential for life but currently not capable of sustaining it and not a baby, because they're not; they just have the potential to grow and develop into a baby but at that stage are not.

I am 100% pro choice. If a woman wants an abortion she should be able to have it as long as it is her very own decision and no pressure is being put upon her to go through with it.

@Skelligsfeathers

I think a lot of people on mumsnet ( and in life) are incredibly blase about having a baby. The whole " there is no perfect time" " babies are always a blessing" " it will all work out in the end" attitude is quite dangerous I think. An unplanned pregnancy where the relationship is non existent or violent or where there is no money or inadequate housing is not a blessing. Every child should be a wanted child.

Saying you are pro choice but adding the caveat that the woman who chooses abortion should also beat her cheat and weep and wail and feel guilty forever is disgusting.

You make the choice for yourself and stay out of other people's reproductive lives.

Totally agree with this. A lot of people are far too blase about having babies they cannot cope with.

But otherwise there really does need to be serious consideration about it because rather than being a solution, the consequences can be far reaching and cause long term trauma more so than going ahead with the pregnancy.

Abortion is inherently more traumatic and has greater long term consequences than going ahead with an unwanted pregnancy? You’ve based this on what evidence?

I think women should have counselling. Of course if you have health problems, money problems, something wrong with the baby, have been raped etc. Abortion is logical

I had none of these issues and yet abortion was still logical for me. I don't regret it and never have. I still look back at it knowing I made the right choice. Abortion is logical at any time if a woman does not want to carry a fetus to term and have a baby. It's a choice.

All the hand-wringing on this thread about women making choices that have zero impact on anyone else. Certainly not anyone on these thread weeping for the poor lost babies.

Meanwhile, women will always, always continue to have abortions. From the beginning of time until the end of time, and even making it illegal will never stop it.

Yes. I’m very, very blasé about it.

@pangolina

I think it depends on how you view the embryo. For example, two of my friends both lost a pregnancy at 8 weeks. One of them viewed it as her baby, a miscarriage, a lost child. She was heartbroken.The other viewed it as a late period. Genuinely. For some people, an early abortion just isn't a huge traumatic thing. For some it is the logical solution to a problem. What I find distasteful is the undercurrent I often pick up, of people claiming to be pro-choice but only really if the woman is suitably distraught and wracked with guilt about it.

Agree with all this.

But otherwise there really does need to be serious consideration about it because rather than being a solution, the consequences can be far reaching and cause long term trauma more so than going ahead with the pregnancy.

Yes for some people, for the majority having an unwanted baby would have far far far more implications. I agree with a PP that some are weirdly blase about having children.

I agree with you OP but I think I am projecting my own experience onto others in doing so which is not right. I have 2 children and they were babies to me right from the first scan pictures but others see things differently. I do think the legal abortion limit for termination when not medically recommended is far too late though.

When I got pregnant and didn’t want to have a baby I did the logical thing for my life and had an abortion. That’s it. If you want an abortion you should be able to access one, regardless of whether you’re in an extreme situation or not.

Why should I have be Len counseled in someone else’s worldview, to accept it as a truth even when that wasn’t my own experience? Why is someone else’s opinion about my own life and body deemed to be more valuable than mine? Having a child has life changing consequences, do women that decide to go ahead with a pregnancy subject to a sit down and cautioned on the risks?

Sadly I know several women of my mothers generation who all had abortions in their 20s, some of them multiple times because they didn’t have the perfect circumstances. They all wept and wailed in their 40s when they couldn’t get pregnant and one spent 50k on ivf to no avail.

I had a termination in 2016 at the age of 25 and I was aware that I may never conceive again because it's not guaranteed for anyone. I now have a child with a different partner and now I've experienced how difficult parenting is (even with a supportive partner) I know I'd rather have never had a child at all than had a child in the circumstances I was in back then. Although I guess if I'd never went on to have my DD I wouldn't have found out how hard it was and may not feel the same.

@ChristinaXYZ

"Abortion can be totally necessary but it's also pretty sad IMO.

You can care about the mother without being so cold and dismissive of the baby they were carrying."

I agree totally. I am also pro choice in that I believe abortion should be legal as it is here in the UK. It is though a terrible sad personal choice to have to make.

It has got a bit like the NHS though - you have to verbally sign up to worshiping the concept - you're either for or against with no nuance allowed.

There is no threat to women's rights to reproductive choices in the UK. We're not the USA. And because of that we ought to be able to discuss the subject without people jumping on you saying 'you're not pro choice' because you have ethical reservations.

@ChristinaXYZ There is no threat to women's rights to reproductive choices in the UK. We're not the USA.

Famous last words. I hope you're right, but as the men's in women's spaces, women thrown out rape survivor's groups in Bristol UK, and women silence and threatened with rape and death prove, there is no longer such a thing as inalienable rights. Not any more. How many of us women on this thread ever thought we would see the day were we were told we had to have men in our toilets and if we complained we were told to shut up?

No rights can ever be taken for granted. Not anymore. Eternal vigilance is the price for these 'rights' that can be taken away at any time depending on the current fad or mood. Please don't assume the UK won't have abortion rights to stripped down, too. Nothing can be taken for granted, not anymore.

To reply re. my previous post, not saying people got their just desserts. The context would be that these women got pregnant in the 70s/80s. Some were shamed as they weren’t married and felt obligated to go ahead with it, some had brief relationships that resulted in pregnancy. The attitude was abortion would solve it all and it was taken as a given that pregnancy would be easy later, which they believed because they were young and naive.

My point is they were unsupported and weren’t properly counselled. And I still feel i that support and proper counselling for women is severely lacking. It’s a huge decision once there is a viable pregnancy, one you have to live with for the rest of your life, that can have negative health consequences.

It isn’t going to the dentist.

I don’t really think abortion is sad. I don’t really see an aborted foetus as a baby so I can’t feel sad for the loss of a life because I don’t think it really was a life yet. To me things like the meat industry and killing of live animals is sadder than a termination of a foetus.

Yes, there is the odd exception such as accidental or illegal abortions close to term but most abortions take place at such an early stage I couldn’t really get upset about them. To be honest life is pretty miserable and the outcomes for a child born into a situation where they weren’t really wanted or where the parents can’t support them financially/ emotionally/ practically etc are pretty low so better to abort a foetus than bring a miserable child into the world, especially as we are already over-populated as it is.

Yes for some people, for the majority having an unwanted baby would have far far far more implications. I agree with a PP that some are weirdly blasé about having children.

👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻

Yes.

I agree, op. It should be safe, legal and rare. However its become almost nothing to many. It's not 'just a medical procedure'. It is killing, but I think it is justified if early on and rare.