To be shocked by how blasé alot of MNers are about abortion

[Nothanksloveimfine]

Yes its healthcare, yes free and safe abortion is completely necessary because the alternative doesn't bare thinking about, yes everybody has a right to choose what's best for them and yes I am pro choice (whilst being explicitly pro life with regards to my own pregnancies)

With all that said and done, I am quite alarmed at how a sizable % of MNers are so blase about abortions. Whenever a poster is talking about being pregnant with an unplanned baby and in a less than perfect situation, I see alot of posters urging her to just have a termination like its a routine stroll through the park.

I've just read a heartbreaking article which is being discussed at the minute and some of the replies on that thread are so cold. It made me cry and I'm wondering how the hell people can read that and not be impacted by it, completely steamrolling over the tragic loss of life by saying things like "that's a rare case" abortion is a good thing bla bla bla.

Does anybody else share my view or am I the odd one out?

It's like people are so determined to bang the "right to abort" drum, they have no regard for the babies whatsoever.

Abortion can be totally necessary but it's also pretty sad IMO.

You can care about the mother without being so cold and dismissive of the baby they were carrying.

Caring about the babies doesn't mean I hate women, I am one.

Yes I've name changed because I don't expect this will go down well here.

@Phobiaphobic

Agree with you, OP. I am pro choice, but it is still ending a life and that should never be done or suggested casually.

@Phobiaphobic

Yeah but it’s not a life.

It’s a collection of cells which could not grow and live without the mother. It is alive in the sense that it grows off the host. A foetus cannot survive independently. So it is not ending a life.

That sort of shite is just peddled out to guilt trip women and keep them in their place

I haven't had an abortion myself, but I still feel for the baby I lost through an early miscarriage. In my head it was a baby.

I'm pro choice.

If I had to have an abortion I'd have to go through a complete turn around about when I see a baby existing and when I see a collection of cells. I don't how I would do that.

But we are all different. I know a few women that have had an an abortion regretted it, and reading on here, many for whom it was the best choice at that time, no regrets.

It's like anything in life, very very difficult choices we have to live with in a way men don't.

I'm still pro choice. I was very moved by that story. I think we should be up in arms about the cavalier fashion women's bodies are treated and talked about in certain parts of the health service.

I think MNers are blasé about a lot of things to be fair.

In the case of abortion there are instances where it is very much needed. Unfortunately, there is also a lot of idealisation around having a baby at the “perfect time” with the “perfect man” neither of which exist, and modern women having more sexual freedom run the risk of seeing abortion as a form of belated contraception.

It’s ethically a bit dodgy particularly with late abortions close to the 24 week mark when the baby becomes sentient.

I think women should have a choice but it should be treated with consideration and respect particularly with younger women.

Sadly I know several women of my mothers generation who all had abortions in their 20s, some of them multiple times because they didn’t have the perfect circumstances. They all wept and wailed in their 40s when they couldn’t get pregnant and one spent 50k on ivf to no avail. C’est la vie.

Everyone has different perspectives and they should be entitled to that without causing undue harm to themselves and others.

I don’t think it’s coldness, I think it is actually displaying a great empathy for women AND children.

Women should always have 100% control over their own bodies. It really doesn’t matter why they want an abortion, it only matters that they do.

Even you think the ‘why’ does matter, surely we really don’t want women being forced to be mothers if they don’t want to be. For the child’s sake just as much as theirs.

The woman could be trying to prevent a child being born into an abusive household.

The woman could already know she would not make a good mother, or that the abuse cycle would continue.

Making access to abortion harder will never be a good thing, for anyone.

And I know about the heartstring pulling story that is being used to reignite this debate. It’s sad that the baby suffered more than was necessary, due to the hospitals negligence. But at the end of the day that woman did not want to have a baby, and now she doesn’t have to.

@Crimesean i posted the WHO list because even though the OP says she's pro-choice that's not the vibe i get from her. But this thread isn't only about her, it is about others, and there is a lot of misinformation about what abortion actually is, what it is for and why it can be vital. It is always worth reading that info.

It is only the best option if the woman concerned decides it is. Stating that "if I was in your situation I would terminate" is perfectly fine. Stating, as many do, that abortion is the best option, is not fine as that is imposing your perspective on the situation.

Semantics. Everything anyone posts here is their opinion unless they are explicitly quoting someone else.

Completely agree with you OP.

Sadly I know several women of my mothers generation who all had abortions in their 20s, some of them multiple times because they didn’t have the perfect circumstances. They all wept and wailed in their 40s when they couldn’t get pregnant and one spent 50k on ivf to no avail.

You sound almost gleeful about this, as if that was the punishment they had to expect.

There is nothing wrong with having an abortion, in your 20s or at any other time.

I agree 100% with you op

I agree with you too OP

"Abortion can be totally necessary but it's also pretty sad IMO.

You can care about the mother without being so cold and dismissive of the baby they were carrying."

I agree totally. I am also pro choice in that I believe abortion should be legal as it is here in the UK. It is though a terrible sad personal choice to have to make.

It has got a bit like the NHS though - you have to verbally sign up to worshiping the concept - you're either for or against with no nuance allowed.

There is no threat to women's rights to reproductive choices in the UK. We're not the USA. And because of that we ought to be able to discuss the subject without people jumping on you saying 'you're not pro choice' because you have ethical reservations.

I think there's a big class element to how people view abortion.

On average (obvs there are plenty of exceptions), WC people tend to be less likely to suggest abortion as an option, and less forgiving of it. WC people are also more likely to assume that abortion = inevitable sadness, regret and trauma.

MC circles tend to be more accepting of abortion on average, particularly if it's at a young age where a girl would be expected to be working towards university / a career. MC people are also less likely to assume that it would be traumatic.

This goes back a long time - way before abortion became legal. MC girls would have had access to a better class of backstreet abortionist (Harley Street even), and having an abortion would have been a way of securing the girl's future (through a good marriage) even back then. For WC girls, the position was very different.

Nobody should be trying to sway anybody in favour of abortion, especially if they're not going to support that person before during and after the fact.

Again, can you not see that it is equally valid to say that nobody should sway an individual into keeping a child if they are not going to support that person before during and after the fact?

You seem to be avoiding answering any questions about the pro life stance.

Also to add - always a risk, isn’t it?
Some women choose to keep it, give birth, meets a good partner, happy families!
Another might have a horrible birth, a disabled child, etc that migr make them deeply regret not aborting.
You’re implying that it does only one way.

Also logically speaking the pros are few. Strong maternal instincts, ‘if’ all goes well.. and…???. Guilt etc if terminating.
The cons are numerous even discounting the risks of pregnancy. AND include the same downsides as rhe pros , because you might feel guilt at not being able to provide for child, stress etc etc.

Neither of this choices shield from strong negative feelings.

Any ‘objective’ advisor, when presenting facts logically will emotionally be seen to be leaning on the side of termination. Because while both have ‘feeling’ repercussions, the termination has practical benefits.

If a woman really wants to keep it fair enough. But if she’s unsure, and In less than ideal conditions it’s easy to see why it appears that termination is pushed.

Everyone is different.

Sadly I know several women of my mothers generation who all had abortions in their 20s, some of them multiple times because they didn’t have the perfect circumstances. They all wept and wailed in their 40s when they couldn’t get pregnant and one spent 50k on ivf to no avail. C’est la vie.

If there wasn't a proven, evidenced link between terminations in their 20s and difficulty conceiving in their 40s, then the two things had nothing to do with each other.

Both situations just go to show how this world is organised around men, male bodies, and men's life cycles.

Sadly I know several women of my mothers generation who all had abortions in their 20s, some of them multiple times because they didn’t have the perfect circumstances. They all wept and wailed in their 40s when they couldn’t get pregnant and one spent 50k on ivf to no avail.

Gross. Being unable to conceive a wanted child later in life doesn't mean having an abortion earlier in life wasn't the right choice, at the time and in the long run.

I don't get the point of your comment (just kidding! Course I do. Being infertile is a punishment for the earlier abortion and they shouldn't have been so feckless as to kill their baby, now they've got their just desserts).

@RampantIvy This is really tricky as it's such an individual and highly emotive area!

Many people might think of an embryo of 4/6/8 weeks as just a collection of cells but a huge amount don't either! Hence the boards we have dedicated to miscarriage no matter the stage - those women very much felt their babies were babies no matter the stage they lost them.

I believe in abortion rights up to a certain point, and generally speaking women who are getting abortions do not take this lightly, as whatever you believe it is a huge decision that can have lasting implications for SOME women (emotional/mental/physical).

@Robinni

I think MNers are blasé about a lot of things to be fair.

In the case of abortion there are instances where it is very much needed. Unfortunately, there is also a lot of idealisation around having a baby at the “perfect time” with the “perfect man” neither of which exist, and modern women having more sexual freedom run the risk of seeing abortion as a form of belated contraception.

It’s ethically a bit dodgy particularly with late abortions close to the 24 week mark when the baby becomes sentient.

I think women should have a choice but it should be treated with consideration and respect particularly with younger women.

Sadly I know several women of my mothers generation who all had abortions in their 20s, some of them multiple times because they didn’t have the perfect circumstances. They all wept and wailed in their 40s when they couldn’t get pregnant and one spent 50k on ivf to no avail. C’est la vie.

Everyone has different perspectives and they should be entitled to that without causing undue harm to themselves and others.

@Robinni

I don’t think you think it’s sad at all, it reads to me like you think they got their just desserts

@Robinni

Plus what do you mean by this

“I think women should have a choice but it should be treated with consideration and respect particularly with younger women.”

What does that even mean? Women should have a choice BUT….

BUT NOTHING!!

@Robinni it’s hard for ANYBODY to get pregnant in their 40’s. And 50’s… no need to say it.
Nothing to do with the abortions, everything to do with common sense

As early as possible, as late as necessary. No matter what the reasons are

That is pro-choice

The biggest issue for me is the need for women to be made to feel guilt or shame for an termination. That people think for an termination to be ok, you have to be racked with guilt and sadness. I had one when I was at university. I made a stupid decision which led to a pregnancy which I couldn't continue with. I have absolutely no regrets over my choice for a termination. I wasn't in a position emotionally and financially to care for a baby or give a baby up for adoption. I have no regrets or sadness over the termination. I wasn't invested emotionally with the pregnancy, it didn't happen out of love, it wasn't wanted and if I had continued I would have resented it. That doesn't make me cold or heartless, I wasn't emotionally invested.

I have two beautiful children now and my feelings towards these pregnancies were completely different from the first, they were wanted, they were loved the moment conceived, I couldn't imagine a live without them.

Every woman's experience will be different and different at varying points in their life. For some they will be indifferent, no emotional connection or others it will be sad, upsetting, devastating.
Neither is right or wrong, just what is right for that person and their circumstances.

We have no right to make any judgements about other people's decisions around their bodies.

whatever you believe it is a huge decision that can have lasting implications for SOME women (emotional/mental/physical)

Same goes for continuing the pregnancy, surely? In fact, choosing to proceed with a pregnancy has lasting implications for ALL women who do so, not just some.

Many people might think of an embryo of 4/6/8 weeks as just a collection of cells but a huge amount don't either! Hence the boards we have dedicated to miscarriage no matter the stage - those women very much felt their babies were babies no matter the stage they lost them.

And that’s great, because it’s respects the breadth of what can be experienced by women. One woman can mourn a miscarriage and another woman can be relieved and happy about an abortion at the same gestation. These things can exist simultaneously and both be true. There is space for all experiences to be respected, heard and valued.

OP, I'm presuming you have never been in the position where you were barely out of your teens, pregnant by a guy you have known 2 months, a student, no job, unsupportive parents and terrified? I have. I don't regret my termination for a second. I wouldn't have survived. It was 17 years ago and I don't regret it at all. I was stupid and young, but it was the right decision.

This thread is quite upsetting. Never seen anyone on mumsnet blase about abortions. They are a real choice, and sometimes the best and most sensible one.