To be shocked by how blasé alot of MNers are about abortion

[Nothanksloveimfine]

Yes its healthcare, yes free and safe abortion is completely necessary because the alternative doesn't bare thinking about, yes everybody has a right to choose what's best for them and yes I am pro choice (whilst being explicitly pro life with regards to my own pregnancies)

With all that said and done, I am quite alarmed at how a sizable % of MNers are so blase about abortions. Whenever a poster is talking about being pregnant with an unplanned baby and in a less than perfect situation, I see alot of posters urging her to just have a termination like its a routine stroll through the park.

I've just read a heartbreaking article which is being discussed at the minute and some of the replies on that thread are so cold. It made me cry and I'm wondering how the hell people can read that and not be impacted by it, completely steamrolling over the tragic loss of life by saying things like "that's a rare case" abortion is a good thing bla bla bla.

Does anybody else share my view or am I the odd one out?

It's like people are so determined to bang the "right to abort" drum, they have no regard for the babies whatsoever.

Abortion can be totally necessary but it's also pretty sad IMO.

You can care about the mother without being so cold and dismissive of the baby they were carrying.

Caring about the babies doesn't mean I hate women, I am one.

Yes I've name changed because I don't expect this will go down well here.

It's the internet effect I think. It's the same with anything on here.

Just get an abortion
Just leave him
Can you not just move

Etc, all very casual as though they're the simplest thing in the world. And like you say, forgotten by lunchtime.

In pro choice too OP, but like you, I understand abortion, isn't simple, straightforward or something to be taken lightly.

Those that suggest abortion to someone on Mumsnet usually give sensible reasons why. You read so many threads on here where women and their children are tied to abusive, miserable lives with a horrible ex who is the father. That’s often the future that the woman making the choice is looking at. That’s why people suggest abortion as a sensible option. I don’t think many people throw it in as a fun comment, and most realise it’s a tough choice.

@theleafandnotthetree

I'm sort of with you OP, I see abortion as something which should be available of course but should never be treated lightly or as another poster has said, akin to getting a mole removed. The wild celebrations by some here in Ireland when the last abortion referendum was passed left a very bad taste in my mouth. I agreed with the result but I didn't see it as some great triumph worth whooping and cheering about. It was necessary but it seemed that for some, celebrating the women's rights aspect of it overrode any other considerations. You can agree with, even fight for the right for women to have safe abortions without shame and still see abortion as something sad and less than ideal.

After the years and years in which pregnant women in Ireland have been oppressed, shamed, punished, forced over to England, often alone and scared, to get the treatment they need, I can only imagine the sheer relief when it became available at home.

The 'wild celebrations' of the result don't necessarily translate to wild celebrations in actual individual cases of women getting an abortion.
I think you do women a disservice to think or imply that.

[quote TalkingCat]@OchonAgusOchonOh No one is 'imposing' anything, they are saying they believe it would be the best option. And in many cases, it definitely and demonstrably is the best option. Stating a fact is not 'imposing' anything.[/quote]
It is only the best option if the woman concerned decides it is. Stating that "if I was in your situation I would terminate" is perfectly fine. Stating, as many do, that abortion is the best option, is not fine as that is imposing your perspective on the situation.

I think we should be much, much more blasé about abortions.

I’d agree, in conjunction with less blasé attitudes to contraception from men and women.

All of the reasons you have listed are perfectly valid reasons for an abortion. “Because I feel like it” is also a valid reason.

It is a medical procedure like any other and does not need to be accompanied by hand wringing and sadness. Sometimes it is the most practical solution. What are posters supposed to say?
‘Abort, but make sure you feel terrible guilt and shame!’

I’ve had one. I feel no guilt, no shame, and no sadness anymore. I think that’s a lot more comforting to anyone making the decision than telling them that it’s a massive deal.

Respecting the right of someone to have an opinion does not mean the opinion itself is deserving of respect. If your opinion supports legislation that is responsible for this:

“Unsafe abortion is a leading – but preventable – cause of maternal deaths and morbidities. It can lead to physical and mental health complications and social and financial burdens for women, communities and health systems.”

www.who.int/news-room/fact-sheets/detail/abortion

…then it’s a piece of shit opinion and I have no problem addressing it as such.

I don’t know why it’s so difficult for some people to understand that other people experience things differently. There is no universal experience, the emotional value of a fetus/having an abortion is personal to each woman. For some women it’s as emotionally taxing as having a mole removed, or even a fully positive emotional experience! And that’s fine. No one should have to deny their own reality or perform grief for the comfort of anyone else.

In pro choice too OP, but like you, I understand abortion, isn't simple, straightforward or something to be taken lightly

Nor is continuing a pregnancy and having a child.

It is only the best option if the woman concerned decides it is. Stating that "if I was in your situation I would terminate" is perfectly fine. Stating, as many do, that abortion is the best option, is not fine as that is imposing your perspective on the situation.

People asking what to do on a message board are asking for opinions. It’s fine to state your personal opinions when people are asking for them. You’ll find people on those threads stating that the best thing to do is to keep it and that everything will be fine. Is that allowed, or is it only abortion women are not allowed an opinion on?

I'm not projecting at all. I felt this way long before I became one of the women being told to have an abortion myself.

And yet every single one of those is a valid reason to teminate, if that's what the woman wants. The issue is the recurrence of posts, like yours, that suggest these are not valid reasons because you personally don't agree, made a different choice

Yes all of those examples I gave are valid reasons to terminate if that's what the woman wants, except they don't all want that. Sometimes somebody just needs a safe space to vent anonymously, they don't ask what they should do about the pregnancy yet in almost all cases where somebody is pregnant and not in a good situation it is heavily implied and sometimes outright stated that they should have an abortion.

Women should be able to come onto mumsnet and ask for a virtual handhold at a difficult point in their life without being made to feel irresponsible if it's clear they want to keep the baby. If no indication of a decision is given by the OP then its not for other people to "remind her of her options" in a way that suggests terminating is what needs to be done.

Lots of you will swear until the cows come home that it doesn't happen but we all know it does. We see it all the time. Wrapping it up in a faux pretty bow by being disingenuous and saying "just reminding her of her options" is exactly that, disingenuous.

If somebody comes on and says they are considering a termination and would like some support then please do give it to them, before during and after the fact preferably, because contrary to what some say, some women do find it traumatic.

What people shouldn't do is to try and sway somebody in favour of a termination when no indication is given that its even an option for the OP.

For the 3rd time I am explicitly pro choice.

IMO, a woman’s right must come before any potential life that a pregnancy creates.

If a woman chooses abortion, then it is her absolute right to have a safe procedure. Similarly women have the absolute right to continue a pregnancy and be protected from coercion. Pro choice isn’t pro abortion

People asking what to do on a message board are asking for opinions. It’s fine to state your personal opinions when people are asking for them. You’ll find people on those threads stating that the best thing to do is to keep it and that everything will be fine. Is that allowed, or is it only abortion women are not allowed an opinion on?

Exactly.

@Ijustreallywantacat

It is only the best option if the woman concerned decides it is. Stating that "if I was in your situation I would terminate" is perfectly fine. Stating, as many do, that abortion is the best option, is not fine as that is imposing your perspective on the situation.

People asking what to do on a message board are asking for opinions. It’s fine to state your personal opinions when people are asking for them. You’ll find people on those threads stating that the best thing to do is to keep it and that everything will be fine. Is that allowed, or is it only abortion women are not allowed an opinion on?

You’ll find people on those threads stating that the best thing to do is to keep it and that everything will be fine. Is that allowed, or is it only abortion women are not allowed an opinion on?

I have stated several times that I disagree with that just as much. It is also imposing your own perspective on a situation.

You have to remember that a lot of posters have been in the position that the OP will end up in if they proceed with having a baby in a terrible situation. They know how it ends up, without romanticising it. They have seen the damage caused to their kids from having an absent or uninvolved or abusive father. They know how hard it is to make ends meet and the exhaustion of being a single parent. They don't sugar coat it.

Frankly, to get an abortion you're assessed by a qualified practitioner and talk through the options with them. You're very naive if you think that a few posts on an advice forum will goad someone into terminating a pregnancy when it isn't the right choice for them.

Trust women. They/we are adults FFS. They're capable of making the right choice for themselves. Abortion is sometimes difficult, sometimes straightforward and easy. The idea that every abortion is a terribly upsetting traumatic experience is a myth perpetuated by anti-choice individuals to make it seem like an awful thing. Having rights over your body is never an awful thing.

I think that abortion should be guilt -free but it often isn't. Women should have access to abortion and that should be safe and free from judgement. The tragedy for me is not abortions, but women trapped into unwanted pregnancies, their health at risk, trapped by poverty or abusive relationships. Women having to break the law to access an abortion, children brought into the world not because they are wanted but because their mother had no other choice.

I am pro-choice but I find the phrase unhelpful as it is not always a "choice". Choice implies that either option is acceptable, when it comes to needing an abortion, the alternative - going through an unwanted pregnancy and giving birth is not comparable with going through with an abortion and that should be recognised. I am not cold or harsh as a person, I have 3 children I wanted them and didn't have to consider the alternative for any of my pregnancies. I am privileged. Women around the world do not all have that security or privilege to make a "choice" - in an ideal world - abortion should be normal and easy to access and free of judgement

[quote Helendee]@NurseBernard

It’s only in your opinion that your aborted baby was ‘a collection of cells’ whilst your wanted children weren’t.
That’s just subjective perception, not fact.[/quote]
Which is the whole point of the thread!

@Nothanksloveimfine

I'm not projecting at all. I felt this way long before I became one of the women being told to have an abortion myself.

And yet every single one of those is a valid reason to teminate, if that's what the woman wants. The issue is the recurrence of posts, like yours, that suggest these are not valid reasons because you personally don't agree, made a different choice

Yes all of those examples I gave are valid reasons to terminate if that's what the woman wants, except they don't all want that. Sometimes somebody just needs a safe space to vent anonymously, they don't ask what they should do about the pregnancy yet in almost all cases where somebody is pregnant and not in a good situation it is heavily implied and sometimes outright stated that they should have an abortion.

Women should be able to come onto mumsnet and ask for a virtual handhold at a difficult point in their life without being made to feel irresponsible if it's clear they want to keep the baby. If no indication of a decision is given by the OP then its not for other people to "remind her of her options" in a way that suggests terminating is what needs to be done.

Lots of you will swear until the cows come home that it doesn't happen but we all know it does. We see it all the time. Wrapping it up in a faux pretty bow by being disingenuous and saying "just reminding her of her options" is exactly that, disingenuous.

If somebody comes on and says they are considering a termination and would like some support then please do give it to them, before during and after the fact preferably, because contrary to what some say, some women do find it traumatic.

What people shouldn't do is to try and sway somebody in favour of a termination when no indication is given that its even an option for the OP.

For the 3rd time I am explicitly pro choice.

People who come on to Mumsnet to talk about their options are explicitly asking for input from the people who comment on their posts.

Surely it's quite reasonable for it to be mentioned as an option? Wouldn't it be a bit weird if mention of abortion was off-limits?

At the end of the day we all make the real decisions for ourselves, in real life.

Most of the time when I see people on MN advising OP that a termination would be sensible I think it's fair enough and often the OP has already mentioned it as an option anyway.

But I remember a thread last year where OPs DH had gotten mortal drunk the night before he was meant to be watching their toddler whilst four month pregnant OP went out to lunch. A couple of posters advised her to TLB and abort, I thought that was rather insane.

I've thought about what you've said and I think it's perhaps better to be blase about terminating a very early pregnancy than to be blase about bringing an entire human into a world where they cannot be provided for. And ultimately I don't think it really matters if people are blase about it because I doubt anyone is going to decide to terminate because a bunch of people on MN told them to.

I respect the right of women to choose, and I’m not saying I would never have had an abortion in any circumstances, I might have. But to me it would have been killing a baby, not getting rid of some unwanted cells. I respect that that’s not everyone’s opinion, but it is mine and I think it’s wrong to tell someone that is not what they should believe

You can believe what you want about your own body. Nobody is telling you you can't believe that about yourself. Just as you friend had no right to tell you that your pregnancy was just a bundle of cells, you've no right to call anyone elses pregnancy a baby or to feel sad if someone else chooses a termination.

I supported a friend through her 3rd abortion ( forth fetus , as one set of twins)
I was horrified at her lack of contraception and her lack of concern for it having happened yet again in another relationship
But all the time I was cool calm and pro choice despite being personally upset because that is what she needed from me as a friend, my personal issues ( later found out I was infertile) was not helpful to me or her in that moment

I find abortions used as contraception upsetting and the loss of most pregnancies triggering now but would still act cool and dispassionate on line to a stranger or in real life if the woman concerned needed that. My concern will always be to my fellow women.

I have stated several times that I disagree with that just as much. It is also imposing your own perspective on a situation.

But what is the massive difference between ‘If I was in your shoes I would terminate.’ and ‘the best thing to do is to terminate.’?

They’re the same opinion! They’re advising the same thing! I don’t understand that at all.

All I’m hearing from you and the OP is that you are in theory ‘pro-choice’ but you want to micromanage and police the language around it and make sure everyone is sad and guilty about it. It should be allowed, sure, but don’t mention it!

Most confused.

What people shouldn't do is to try and sway somebody in favour of a termination when no indication is given that its even an option for the OP.

Can I ask if you feel the same way about the pro life responses trying to shame anyone into keeping a pregnancy?

Given that the majority of threads are asking for an opinion as to what to do. Perfectly fine to suggest termination as the right thing to do.
Especially since the forces IRL are so much the other way, by good women like yourself.

A mass of cells isn’t a baby. It’s just that. The fact that YOU are so emotive means nothing.

If people want professional advice they should stay off forums and contact a charity instead. You can’t control randoms on the internet

@TurningUpMyStereotype

I think we should be much, much more blasé about abortions.

I’d agree, in conjunction with less blasé attitudes to contraception from men and women.

Absolutely. As well as normalising vasectomies for young men.