To be shocked by how blasé alot of MNers are about abortion

[Nothanksloveimfine]

Yes its healthcare, yes free and safe abortion is completely necessary because the alternative doesn't bare thinking about, yes everybody has a right to choose what's best for them and yes I am pro choice (whilst being explicitly pro life with regards to my own pregnancies)

With all that said and done, I am quite alarmed at how a sizable % of MNers are so blase about abortions. Whenever a poster is talking about being pregnant with an unplanned baby and in a less than perfect situation, I see alot of posters urging her to just have a termination like its a routine stroll through the park.

I've just read a heartbreaking article which is being discussed at the minute and some of the replies on that thread are so cold. It made me cry and I'm wondering how the hell people can read that and not be impacted by it, completely steamrolling over the tragic loss of life by saying things like "that's a rare case" abortion is a good thing bla bla bla.

Does anybody else share my view or am I the odd one out?

It's like people are so determined to bang the "right to abort" drum, they have no regard for the babies whatsoever.

Abortion can be totally necessary but it's also pretty sad IMO.

You can care about the mother without being so cold and dismissive of the baby they were carrying.

Caring about the babies doesn't mean I hate women, I am one.

Yes I've name changed because I don't expect this will go down well here.

@Tilltheend99 - hi, did you mean to quote my post? If so I'm a bit confused. Happy to discuss, just don't understand!

Caring about the babies

But the anti abortion lobby isn’t about “caring about the babies”, is it? Who looks after these unwanted children when they’re forcibly born? Would you? They wouldn’t. Are they out there advocating help and financial support for single mothers? No, they’re not. Are the outcomes good for unwanted children born into difficult situations? Generally not. So it’s not about caring about babies. At all.

If you don’t want to have an abortion, you will never have to have one. Which is right and as it should be.

I actually wish more people had abortions. There are so many abused and unwanted dc in this country. I sometimes can't cope in work with the amount of older dc that have so many problems because they weren't nurtured and cared for. It's so unfair and selfish to bring a child into the world that you don't want. So unfair. Life long problems from being in foster care, failed adoptions or abuse and neglect that didn't reach social care threshold.

@Penzinola

BTW if you have to say "I am pro choice, but...", then you aren't pro choice.

Oddly, being pro choice is a bit like being pregnant; you are or you aren't. No in between.

Not really. "I'm pro-choice but disagree with how people do x" is a valid statement. Pro choice means you support it legally and respect other women's right to access it.

It's like with the hypothetical late term abortion for any reason. Lots of people wouldn't support that (but would support TMFR). If that makes some anti-abortion, that's a pretty high threshold for being pro-choice. We all have inner thoughts and opinions.

Yes, the number of women trapped in shitty situations tethered to deadbeat men who are useless fathers to their children - that boggles me far more than a women choosing to abort ever will.

You aren’t pro choice.
I’m seven months pregnant and love my baby and can’t wait to be a mum again…
But if someone fell pregnant and didn’t want to be a mother at that point in her life, then she can decide for any reason personal to her to have an abortion. I wouldn’t judge her for it. Shit happens in life. Motherhood is a huge deal. Too many babies born into total chaos and end bring those issues into adulthood, then affecting their children.

There isn’t an ideal time to have a baby…but certain things need to be in place and the mothers mental well being is one
Of the biggest factors.
I had my first daughter at 18, got made redundant from my job at the time and ended up back living with my
Parents and on benefits, split with the dad who is a total deadbeat, It was far from ideal, yes everything worked out great in the end now I have matured. I’ve been with my partner 11 years, good job and a mortgage and now baby no.2 on the way….but I can totally understand someone else choosing not to have there baby in the circumstances I was in.

I totally agree with you, the way it´s bandied out here like it was like something not important or really scarring to many women, something on enema level. But then, it is perfectly legal and just another opinion and this is something that those that differ will never find agreement on. A psychologically complicated matter if there ever was one.

OP your view amounts to: women can have abortions but it has to be surrounded by a mountain of guilt and reverence and trauma.

Abortions should be freely available. Women should be able to feel however they want about them. You shouldn't have to go through some ritual self-abasement to show you understand what's involved and feel terribly bad about what you're doing.

I don't think anyone has an abortion frivolously or without thinking about the consequences.

[quote Helendee]@NurseBernard

It’s only in your opinion that your aborted baby was ‘a collection of cells’ whilst your wanted children weren’t.
That’s just subjective perception, not fact.[/quote]
🤷🏻‍♀️

Tell me something I don’t know.

It was an unwanted pregnancy so, to me, it was a merely a collection of cells.

Completely different from the babies I tried to conceive and wanted. Completely different.

@Giraffesandbottoms

Exactly. If anything, people are too blaze' about having a baby and don't think it through

But there are posters upthread squabbling about whether 70% or 48% of people who haven’t had abortion didn’t use contraception: either one of those numbers is absurdly high! Abortion should be a back stop for awful scenarios or failed contraception. It shouldn’t just be a “could not be fucked to use a condom” method.

@Giraffesandbottoms Abortion should be there for any reason the woman wants one. Whether contraception was used or not. There should be conditions on a woman's body autonomy.

My issue isn't women having abortions, it's the way they're actively encouraged to by strangers on the Internet who'll forget about them by lunch time. I think it's cold.

As I said, twice now, my issue is the coldness about it on mumsnet and how posters think its ok to make such a suggestion to people they don't know.

People also suggest posters should leave their husbands, or cut contact with their parents. Why is it not equally ‘cold’ to suggest this? The consequences are arguably more extreme, but no one ever complains that this advice must never be given.

The reason posters ‘think it’s ok to make such a suggestion to people they don't know’ is because it is. Suggestions from people they don’t know is precisely what people are asking for by posting on Mumsnet. It’s the whole concept of an anonymous advice forum. That doesn’t change because you or anyone else is uncomfortable with the topic or the responses.

@HelenUrth - yes! The facts are the facts.

If a woman feels sad about it, or not, is entirely her perogative, and will depend, amongst other things, on the circumstances.

Doesn't mean that women should be denigrated for either set of emotions.

I was pg at university, and if it had gone past a few days, I wouldn't had a termination. I probably would've felt confused, maybe even guilty, but it would've been my reaction.

My first mc was at "only" 10 weeks. But I was devastated in those particular circumstances.

Same woman.
Different pregnancies.
Different reactions.

@RampantIvy

In the early stages most people don't think of an embryo as a baby, just a bunch of cells. You are using emotive language by calling an embryo a baby.

Exactly this.

@NurseBernard

Yes, the number of women trapped in shitty situations tethered to deadbeat men who are useless fathers to their children - that boggles me far more than a women choosing to abort ever will.

And this. So much this.

While most posters on abortion threads discuss options and site that it is the woman's choice, I agree with you op, that there is a cohort of posters who push for abortion as the only "sensible" option, even where it is obvious that the poster does not really want one. It happens quite frequently and is apparent in some of the posts here too e.g. There's not always a perfect time to have a child, however having it when you are in poverty, partner/husband had an affair and abandoned you, etc isn't very wise, and in those cases abortion would be the best choice. So of course wise Mumsnetters will advocate it. This poster has decided what the best choice is based on their attitude and perspective. That is not pro-choice. A choice is always individual.

I actually don't think posters like that are pro choice. They are pushing the choice they would make and I see that as no different to pushing the poster to continue with the pregnancy. To me, being pro-choice is very similar to supporting free speech - I may not like what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it. It is not necessary to agree with a person's choice to be pro-choice. It is enough to support their right to make that choice for whatever reasons they have.

I think that the trivialising of abortion can result in women having abortions they don't want as they are told it's no big deal. For many women, it isn't a big deal and they will have no problem deciding to abort. For many others, it is a much more complicated decision that requires support and non-directive counselling to help them explore their feelings and make the decision that is right for them. For others, an abortion will never be the right choice. In order to be pro-choice, all of these scenarios should be supported.

I have had an abortion. It was not a difficult decision to make. For me, it was the right choice. I have a friend who, in similar circumstances, chose to continue with the pregnancy. She deliberated for a while and then made the choice that was right for her.

There is plenty of research out there that shows women who suffer after an abortion tend to be those who didn't really want the abortion. They felt pressurised in to having it by circumstances and/or people in their lives. To be truly pro-choice we need to also support women to choose to continue with the pregnancy in what we might consider to be insane circumstances just as much as we need to support the woman who has multiple terminations because she doesn't like contraception.

I think it's a positive thing that women see abortion as a practical procedure. I worry for the women in the US and the trend towards treating abortion as murder there. Women shouldn't be made to feel guilty about having abortions and I think it's good that it's not required to self-flagellate if you need one.

Nobody is going to have an abortion because of a forum post. The closest that I've seen to what you describe is women saying "I'd have an abortion in your shoes" or "Why did you get pregnant with a second child when you knew your h was shit?"

Your post comes across as abortions should only been given if you're traumatized enough which isn't pro-choice. I think it's good to talk about women's health issues like abortion without shame and embarrassment about considering it as a choice. Sometimes it's for the best and women make the best decision possible. In real life people will talk in a more roundabout way because they worry about being judged by people like you. It's ok not to feel guilty about an abortion or not consider a fetus a baby yet imo.

In NI, where I am, I imagine there are very few women who would have anyone in real life to talk to about whether or not they should have an abortion. Coming onto a forum like this and hearing other women say it's ok to terminate an unplanned/unwanted pregnancy must be a great relief and comfort to them. Abortion is politicised in NI and the voices of anti abortionists calling women murderers for choosing to terminate are by far the loudest. Indeed they stand on street corners with their megaphones and graphic pictures in an attempt to force their views on the population. Combine that with the prominence of religion here and its accompanying guilt and misogyny, NI is a lonely, lonely place for a woman with a decision to make about her own body. I, for one, am glad that there are women on Mumsnet who are actively and vocally validating of a woman's right to terminate. I doubt any woman makes the decision lightly and I doubt she bases her decision purely on the say so of people on a chat forum. Hearing from a detached and disinterested party that it's ok and maybe even a good decision is a help, not a hindrance, in my view. That's not cold. It's just a discussion of fact.

@Nothanksloveimfine

Yes its healthcare, yes free and safe abortion is completely necessary because the alternative doesn't bare thinking about, yes everybody has a right to choose what's best for them and yes I am pro choice (whilst being explicitly pro life with regards to my own pregnancies)

With all that said and done, I am quite alarmed at how a sizable % of MNers are so blase about abortions. Whenever a poster is talking about being pregnant with an unplanned baby and in a less than perfect situation, I see alot of posters urging her to just have a termination like its a routine stroll through the park.

I've just read a heartbreaking article which is being discussed at the minute and some of the replies on that thread are so cold. It made me cry and I'm wondering how the hell people can read that and not be impacted by it, completely steamrolling over the tragic loss of life by saying things like "that's a rare case" abortion is a good thing bla bla bla.

Does anybody else share my view or am I the odd one out?

It's like people are so determined to bang the "right to abort" drum, they have no regard for the babies whatsoever.

Abortion can be totally necessary but it's also pretty sad IMO.

You can care about the mother without being so cold and dismissive of the baby they were carrying.

Caring about the babies doesn't mean I hate women, I am one.

Yes I've name changed because I don't expect this will go down well here.

I 100 % agree with you Op. It's horrible the way abortion is viewed on here as a quick fix. It's definitely pushed as the desirable and best outcome. Rarely does anybody talk through the alternatives.

I'm just upset by the collective coldness about it on mumsnet,

Not everyone feels exactly the same way you do. Nature can be very harsh and I could tell you the details of my natural miscarriages but I will spare your feelings. You don't seem willing to spare anyone else's feelings, instead you seem to want everyone else to perform misery to make you feel better.

Some people feel calm and practical about termination, others feel very emotional. There is no "collective coldness" or "collective anything" on MumsNet but you have picked on a few postings that affect you personally and decided that they must represent a collective view. They don't. We share different perspectives honestly, whether or not you find some of them "cold".

As I said, twice now, my issue is the coldness about it on mumsnet and how posters think its ok to make such a suggestion to people they don't know.

All advice here is given to people we don't know. That would mean no-one here could ever suggest a termination or recommend a termination as potentially the least distressing solution. I don't know what that is but it's not pro-choice.

Agree, op, but too nervous to say that irl

Totally agree, OP. Have seen plenty of posters encouraging termination when the OP hasn't raised it. Just coming on to say you're not crazy.

@Step1234

If nobody came into the threads you talk about, saying that abortion is a perfectly valid choice for an unwanted pregnancy, (even if you feel it's cold) then all the threads would be full of people assuming the woman will just go ahead with the pregnancy, and telling her that having the baby is the right thing to do and everything will work out just fine. Even if that's not the right thing for her.

How is that any better than some people pointing out that aborting the foetus is a valid option available to that woman? Why aren't you bothered about emotive language being used to influence women to continue a pregnancy? A bit of balance is a good thing and i suspect you are skimming over the posts you agree with and focusing on the ones you don't, leading you to the conclusion that there are hordes of women on mn determined to tell women to abort when there isn't.

The issue is not people saying abortion is a valid choice (it is), the issue is people saying the only sensible thing to do in these circumstances is to have an abortion. That is no more pro-choice than a poster coming on and saying the only sensible option is to have the baby.

Telling the poster about their options, suggesting resources, relating your own experience, all fine. Telling the poster what they should do, whether it be to continue with the pregnancy or to terminate the pregnancy is not, to my mind, fine. You get both type of posters on many of the abortion threads. Neither are, to my mind, pro-choice.

You are suggesting people are blasé, but I don't think that is true. I think they are dispassionate because it is on line. That's not a bad thing, if people wanted an emotional response from somebody who knows them, they shouldn't ask on the internet.

How do other women’s choices impact on you

@Bbq1?

@Whatwilltheweatherbetoday?

Abortion should be there for any reason the woman wants one

I didn’t say otherwise.