Page 17 | To be shocked by how blasé alot of MNers are about abortion

CarmenThePanda · 13/04/2022 08:39

Most things are not' fully formed' before 20 weeks but the heart is beating very early on from 5 to 6 weeks

No, there is an electrical pulse which will become the beat of the heart.

HaveringWavering · 13/04/2022 08:39

I find it surprising that people suggest a woman should have a child, “because it’s your baybee” when that child may forever bind her to a man she dislikes and/or inherit some of his characteristics (and I’m not talking only about rapists here, it’s very easy to have sex with someone and then realise they are not for you at all).

ExMachinaDeus · 13/04/2022 08:40

I’m reading all these posts from people who SAY they’re pro choice but the go on to make conditions.

You’re either in favour of women making THEIR choice about a pregnancy or you’re not.

Personally, I find it “abhorrent” - to use the word a PP uses about some terminations but still says she’s “pro-choice” - that so many women go ahead with pregnancies which are accidental, and assume someone else will pay for them.

BuffyFanForever · 13/04/2022 08:40

Thank you OP for coming out and saying this. It’s nice to see there are other people who view it as a serious decision that may well not be right for everyone. It’s terribly sad when people are presented with that ad the final and best option without any balanced argument so the person asking for advice can hear all options. I wish you and your little one well (good riddance to the ex H!)

altforvarmt · 13/04/2022 08:41

@Madrenetterhere Why are you referring to statistics from a paper with a global perspective? Yes, in much of the world, women don't have reasonable access to contraception, and subsequently have abortions.

Those global stats aren't applicable in the UK where women do have access to both contraception and abortion services.

TalkingCat · 13/04/2022 08:41

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sillyme563 · 13/04/2022 08:41

When I was 30 I had an abortion. It was just a "clump of cells" and I wanted to live my life with my (now husband). I wish someone like the OP had talked to me because fast forward 6 years I was given an infertility diagnosis.

To hear the IVF embryologist calling me every day to update me on the number of cells that were dividing.. "the egg has been fertilised and there are two cells today". It was a punch in the face at my previous 'it's just a clump of cells'.

When we politicise medical procedures on women's bodies you end up with some tragic stories.

bluebellsandcustard · 13/04/2022 08:41

From my perspective it's because people are so sickened by cases of child cruelty and avoidable deaths that they'd rather the women have a choice to terminate the pregnancy if it's not wanted.

I can't bear the thought of an unwanted child!

Whosaysyoucanthaveitall · 13/04/2022 08:42

@theleafandnotthetree

I'm sort of with you OP, I see abortion as something which should be available of course but should never be treated lightly or as another poster has said, akin to getting a mole removed. The wild celebrations by some here in Ireland when the last abortion referendum was passed left a very bad taste in my mouth. I agreed with the result but I didn't see it as some great triumph worth whooping and cheering about. It was necessary but it seemed that for some, celebrating the women's rights aspect of it overrode any other considerations. You can agree with, even fight for the right for women to have safe abortions without shame and still see abortion as something sad and less than ideal.

100% agree.

SockFluffInTheBath · 13/04/2022 08:42

@TheChurchOfEli

Ah, so we boiled down to the real caveat. You were in a shit situation, came to MN for help, had some reminders that abortion was an option. You didn’t like that and you’ve stewed on it for over a year and are now venting.

I’m glad your situation worked out, but it very could have easily ended in a different scenario for a different woman who could be sitting right now regretting a child and hating her life.

You come to a forum for advice, surely any adult knows not to take every single post to heart and use their own brain to assess the situation and the advice and do what they they need to do. Do you think everyone who posts LTB should be blindly listened to? No, of course not, so why are you even suggesting that people who say “abortion” are going to massively influence a stranger online?

If you don’t want strangers advice, and it will often be wanky advice, don’t ask for it.

Ah ha indeed. OP I’m genuinely pleased you’re happy with your situation, and congratulations on DC. @TheChurchOfEli is right though, you were reminded of your options, made YOUR CHOICE, and you’re happy. Good show. That doesn’t mean it would be the right choice for everyone, and how are people who’ve never met you supposed to pick for you?

DropYourSword · 13/04/2022 08:43

Jesus @TalkingCat - that's a pretty weird and terrible thing to say!

PinkSyCo · 13/04/2022 08:43

Oh please … hopefully she should go on to produce another bunch of cells and it’ll form a lovely human for her, lets not kid ourselves. For somebody to have a miscarriage biology is working it’s magic there is something wrong with the clump of cells and that’s why her body isn’t allowing it to continue.

So cold. I hope to God you don’t say this shit to women who have lost ‘clumps of cells’ in real life.

NotthesameNotok · 13/04/2022 08:44

Biology and development can’t be denied to fit an agenda.

Whether it is a wanted pregnancy or not the stage of development and how this appears is the same. To some it is a wanted baby to others an unwanted embryo but the stage of development will be the same. That is a fact.

It may feel unpalatable for people to admit this but we deserve the correct and accurate information. When else would we accept a procedure and not know the full facts?

Booboobibles · 13/04/2022 08:44

I agree with you.

Pro choice and pro life are a spectrum surely? It depends on so many things. And we should be able to talk about this without being told we’re not pro choice. After twelve weeks, I’m pretty sure the reality is quite gruesome.

The problem is that if abortion laws were changed, other women’s rights would be affected.

Tilltheend99 · 13/04/2022 08:45

I read the story on the thread that you are alluding to and agree that it was horrific.

But the issue in that case was poor quality of health care. If the medical professionals supporting that woman through her medical procedure had done everything correctly then her 30 week old baby would have survived.

I agree that some of those responding lacked empathy, hadn’t read the article and seemed lacking in knowledge of the process that should have taken place for women to have safe abortion.

The woman in the case had thought she was ending an early stage pregnancy on health grounds. The parents supported their baby for four days in icu before he passed away which gives the impression that they would have wanted the baby had they know he was nearly full term. This was not a case of ‘removing some unwanted cells’ as some have said.

There is hysteria in some parts of the world currently over abortion and we definitely don’t need that here but it is equally important that the treatments and procedures women are having are to a high standard for the health and well-being of the mother.

It is no good saying something is a rare case without acknowledging it and learning from it to protect women and viable babies in future.

NurseBernard · 13/04/2022 08:45

Sorry you’re struggling so much with other women’s choices, that have no bearing on you whatsoever, OP.

I am not pro life.

I don’t think all life is created equal.

I just don’t. Because it isn’t.

I swat flies, and eat meat. All sentient beings that were once living, breathing creatures.

Unless you’re going to weep for all living things that meet an untimely end, you’re a hypocrite.

TurningUpMyStereotype · 13/04/2022 08:45

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CarmenThePanda · 13/04/2022 08:46

OP: what I can’t stomach is the constant inference that women ‘should’ find termination traumatic / shameful , and should feel guilt.

It is almost always presumed that termination will be ‘awful’.

Women are silenced by shame, silenced by the fact that their termination is an offence to anyone experiencing fertility difficulties etc.

I have had 2 terminations and felt nothing but relief. Being pregnant when I did not want to be felt as if my body had been stolen from me, I was helpless etc. I felt no guilt in ending it.

A completely different feeling to a wanted pregnancy.

Why must women be subjected to so much pressure, guilt and obligation over their biology? It gives men who impose sex without consent such power over our bodies and lives. That’s why it is at the crux of feminism for me.

HaveringWavering · 13/04/2022 08:46

@sillyme563

When I was 30 I had an abortion. It was just a "clump of cells" and I wanted to live my life with my (now husband). I wish someone like the OP had talked to me because fast forward 6 years I was given an infertility diagnosis.

To hear the IVF embryologist calling me every day to update me on the number of cells that were dividing.. "the egg has been fertilised and there are two cells today". It was a punch in the face at my previous 'it's just a clump of cells'.

When we politicise medical procedures on women's bodies you end up with some tragic stories.

The embryologist was literally referring to it as cells, yet you now say that changes your perspective on the terminated pregnancy being “a bunch of cells”?

I had IVF. Lots of embryos that were not viable after the first few divisions. Can’t say I ever thought of them as babies; they were just statistics. Even now I struggle to equate my DS with what went on in the lab. He was only a baby after I saw him on the 12 week scan.

gogohm · 13/04/2022 08:47

My attitude to abortion is partly governed by the appalling circumstances I saw some children living in in a previous job - people who are not in a good position to have children should be on good contraception but back in the real world some get pregnant and the kindest thing all around can be to terminate. ;obviously adoption is an option but rare voluntarily in the U.K.)

NewYorkCityDreamer · 13/04/2022 08:47

You can be sad that the 30 week gestation foetus/baby died and hope it never ever happens again whilst still supporting women’s rights to have an abortion

Butitsnotfunnyisititsserious · 13/04/2022 08:47

@TheChurchOfEli

Ah, so we boiled down to the real caveat. You were in a shit situation, came to MN for help, had some reminders that abortion was an option. You didn’t like that and you’ve stewed on it for over a year and are now venting.

I’m glad your situation worked out, but it very could have easily ended in a different scenario for a different woman who could be sitting right now regretting a child and hating her life.

You come to a forum for advice, surely any adult knows not to take every single post to heart and use their own brain to assess the situation and the advice and do what they they need to do. Do you think everyone who posts LTB should be blindly listened to? No, of course not, so why are you even suggesting that people who say “abortion” are going to massively influence a stranger online?

If you don’t want strangers advice, and it will often be wanky advice, don’t ask for it.

Yep. So OP you exercised your choice, fantastic that you kept your child but of course people advised you of the alternative options available. If you didn't want that, you shouldn't have posted your situation on a forum.

IAMGE · 13/04/2022 08:48

@Nothanksloveimfine

Yes its healthcare, yes free and safe abortion is completely necessary because the alternative doesn't bare thinking about, yes everybody has a right to choose what's best for them and yes I am pro choice (whilst being explicitly pro life with regards to my own pregnancies)

With all that said and done, I am quite alarmed at how a sizable % of MNers are so blase about abortions. Whenever a poster is talking about being pregnant with an unplanned baby and in a less than perfect situation, I see alot of posters urging her to just have a termination like its a routine stroll through the park.

I've just read a heartbreaking article which is being discussed at the minute and some of the replies on that thread are so cold. It made me cry and I'm wondering how the hell people can read that and not be impacted by it, completely steamrolling over the tragic loss of life by saying things like "that's a rare case" abortion is a good thing bla bla bla.

Does anybody else share my view or am I the odd one out?

It's like people are so determined to bang the "right to abort" drum, they have no regard for the babies whatsoever.

Abortion can be totally necessary but it's also pretty sad IMO.

You can care about the mother without being so cold and dismissive of the baby they were carrying.

Caring about the babies doesn't mean I hate women, I am one.

Yes I've name changed because I don't expect this will go down well here.

I’ve had two - judge me if you like.

One was after a rape I took the morning after pill correctly and straight away and I still tested pregnant and I had to relive the whole thing via two doctors at a clinic asking why I wanted a termination. I shouldn’t of needed to be asked why I wanted one - check I wasn’t being coerced fine - but not the detail. During the termination the doctor doing it wasn’t particularly kind - but I’ve never regretted it - ever ever ever it was a relief.

My second was when I was married. I was love bombed and got married and he got increasingly abusive and the one thing they can do is get you pregnant quickly and then really rack it up - which is what he did. Again he wasn’t an overt abuser but just to me and he had full custody of the second wife’s children with her and I suddenly saw he would constantly be going for custody etc and I didn’t have that strength at that time - again I terminated I don’t regret it. Again.

I would encourage any woman that feels she wants a baby to have it. But it totally her choice.

For me pro choice means that - my choice. I don’t regret or hasn’t any issues from my terminations. None. Just relief.

SoOverThisCrap · 13/04/2022 08:48

@ExMachinaDeus

I’m reading all these posts from people who SAY they’re pro choice but the go on to make conditions.

You’re either in favour of women making THEIR choice about a pregnancy or you’re not.

Personally, I find it “abhorrent” - to use the word a PP uses about some terminations but still says she’s “pro-choice” - that so many women go ahead with pregnancies which are accidental, and assume someone else will pay for them.

I used the word abhorrent in my post and said I'm pro choice, but I meant it's abhorrent that some people suggest having an abortion but passing it off as a miscarriage. I don't find abortions abhorrent at all, just passing one off as a miscarriage. Unless you weren't talking about my post?! Posts move so fast it's hard to keep up with who the pp is! 😊

theleafandnotthetree · 13/04/2022 08:49

@Hugasauras

I don't find abortion 'sad'. I've had one and don't ever feel sad about it or even really think about it, and I'm certainly not emotionally invested in other people's abortions. Of course it's an emotional experience for some people who have one, but certainly not everyone, and I wouldn't presume to feel sad for someone else over something that has no impact on my life and whose feelings I don't know.

What does make me sad are the many unwanted and uncared for children in this country, women tied to abusive men for the rest of their lives, women whose mental and physical health is irrevocably ruined. I think we should be more if not blasé then at least open about abortion because an unwanted pregnancy can ruin someone's life.

So many children brought into shitty home lives, poverty, so many women whose lives are a fucking slog day in and day out and who are utterly miserable. And it's always women who pick up the pieces of unwanted pregnancies. The man can fuck off and pay the bare minimum and be done with it.

Let's be more honest about the effect having a baby can have on your life. It can be utterly wonderful or utterly ruinous, and if you're in a situation where it will make it the latter, then I am glad you have safe and available options.

I agree with you completely, that is the greater tragedy, but it is possible to feel sad about all of that and still feel sad about abortion too. The two are not mutually exclusive