To be shocked by how blasé alot of MNers are about abortion

[Nothanksloveimfine]

Yes its healthcare, yes free and safe abortion is completely necessary because the alternative doesn't bare thinking about, yes everybody has a right to choose what's best for them and yes I am pro choice (whilst being explicitly pro life with regards to my own pregnancies)

With all that said and done, I am quite alarmed at how a sizable % of MNers are so blase about abortions. Whenever a poster is talking about being pregnant with an unplanned baby and in a less than perfect situation, I see alot of posters urging her to just have a termination like its a routine stroll through the park.

I've just read a heartbreaking article which is being discussed at the minute and some of the replies on that thread are so cold. It made me cry and I'm wondering how the hell people can read that and not be impacted by it, completely steamrolling over the tragic loss of life by saying things like "that's a rare case" abortion is a good thing bla bla bla.

Does anybody else share my view or am I the odd one out?

It's like people are so determined to bang the "right to abort" drum, they have no regard for the babies whatsoever.

Abortion can be totally necessary but it's also pretty sad IMO.

You can care about the mother without being so cold and dismissive of the baby they were carrying.

Caring about the babies doesn't mean I hate women, I am one.

Yes I've name changed because I don't expect this will go down well here.

@talkingcat

Oh Jesus you want me to do this? Lol

www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S1521693419300458

From this 70 percent of abortions no contraception was used.
The other 30 percent contraception was used. (Of that there will be contraception failure a genuine case of, and there will be also ineffective use of contraception which lead to contraception failure) there's a difference do you understand?!
Guttenmacher - will tell you the same thing

I haven't looked at planned parenthood there's no point and I've no time

You are chatting shit. I'm embarrassed for u.

FYI I was a midwife and I spent two years working in an abortion clinic. I know what I'm saying who are you again?!

Also, why is okay for people to claim a foetus is just a blob of jelly/ clump of cells' but then a poster gets jumped on for saying the heart is fully formed before 20 weeks. Most things are not' fully formed' before 20 weeks but the heart is beating very early on from 5 to 6 weeks.

@NETSRIK

So what if people remind women of their options which include abortion? It IS an option. Says more about you OP that you've tallied up the replies and you've noticed more suggestions of abortion. To be honest I haven't noticed this at all.

Absolutely this. I think this is about your agenda, OP.

@Nothanksloveimfine

There's not always a perfect time to have a child, however having it when you are in poverty, partner/husband had an affair and abandoned you, etc isn't very wise, and in those cases abortion would be the best choice. So of course wise Mumsnetters will advocate it.

Thanks for your assessment that my lovely DS shouldn't have been born, because his father chose to he unfaithful.

I was one of the women on mumsnet I was referring to in my OP, who came on for advice and was told the right thing to do was to abort.

Thankfully I disregarded the 'have an abortion, I would definitely have an abortion' and he's now 5 months old.

So no, terminating him would not have been the best choice. Not by a long shot.

When I was at school the headmistress would tell the tale of the woman who refused treatment for womb cancer because she was pregnant when everyone was telling her to terminate. MIraculously the cancer came away and all was well and the baby was (of course) perfect.

These tales always end the same way - everyone told me to terminate and they were wrong! I have a perfect baby! Its always perfect - probably because forced birthers rarely give a fig for the children once they are extant.

@Penzinola

BTW if you have to say "I am pro choice, but...", then you aren't pro choice.

Oddly, being pro choice is a bit like being pregnant; you are or you aren't. No in between.

This sums it up perfectly, @Penzinola.

There really does seem to be a bit of a backlash about women's right to choose atm.

I agree op. Currently 12 weeks pregnant and terms like "a mass of unwanted cells" make me feel quite sick. It's not. It's a baby. Plain and simple.

@Madrenetterhere "First of all the term 'heartbeat' is extremely misleading. A six week fetus doesn't even have a heart. What is actually occurring is minor electrical activity at the fetal cardiac pole."

From an OBGYN. I can't seem to post images, but it was a meme by an actual OBGYN.

Another - "Well if we are talking about the "heartbeat" it's not even a developed heart yet it's just the neural tube. The brain and other vital organs have not yet began to develop. The neural tube then closes approx week 7-8, and then the heart, spinal cord and brain will START to develop. It's not even until week 11-12 that the embryo will scientifically take on the status of fetus. A very recent study shows the the heart doesn't even have "fully organized muscle tissue" until approx. 20 weeks into pregnancy."

To me it would be the same as having a mole removed.
A mass of unwanted cells that could or would cause harm if not dealt with.

Really? Maybe I should tell my daughter, who is currently distraught after recently miscarrying a bunch of cells, this. That should cheer her up.

@ChildDLA

To those who say as late as necessary, would you agree with abortion at full term? What about sex selective abortions?

I'm really conflicted about it tbh.

Yes. That's what people mean by "as late as necessary" that also makes my very say but ultimately the child's life ending before its even born is probably better than being born and brought up by someone who doesn't want it, or taken straight away and put into the care system.

Strongly disagree with you OP. I am pro choice. The only reason I wouldn't say I was pro abortion is because it is none of my business if a woman chooses to get an abortion or not. It isn't my place to try and convince another person to have a baby or have an abortion.

But oh, the fact that there are options is something to celebrate, and sometimes it is something people need to be reminded of.

Becoming pregnant doesn't mean you have to be a mother. You don't have to think of the foetus as a baby unless you want to.

It is not helpful for me to insert myself into every situation and ponder what I would do and how I would exercise my right to choose. Because I'm not in the situation.

Pro choice means everyone gets a choice.

Pro choice does not mean people can choose but only if i get to choose how they feel about it or if I think there's a good enough reason.

Pro choice means it is none of my business. And that I don't caveat it with how I think I would behave.

@Nothanksloveimfine

There's not always a perfect time to have a child, however having it when you are in poverty, partner/husband had an affair and abandoned you, etc isn't very wise, and in those cases abortion would be the best choice. So of course wise Mumsnetters will advocate it.

Thanks for your assessment that my lovely DS shouldn't have been born, because his father chose to he unfaithful.

I was one of the women on mumsnet I was referring to in my OP, who came on for advice and was told the right thing to do was to abort.

Thankfully I disregarded the 'have an abortion, I would definitely have an abortion' and he's now 5 months old.

So no, terminating him would not have been the best choice. Not by a long shot.

No. You can't do that!

An abandoned woman has a choice. Suggesting this is not mandating an abortion because the father is unfaithful. THAT is the kind of emotional blackmail I utterly despise in this debate.

That you chose to continue with your pregnancy does not negate anyone elses viewpoint or choice. Nor does it remove the need for continued discssion that offer support and advice regarding abortion - to any woman.

Your decision also shows that women here make choices that go against any suggestions and advice given here. That women are not easily led, meek little kittens requiring saving!

Ah, so we boiled down to the real caveat. You were in a shit situation, came to MN for help, had some reminders that abortion was an option. You didn’t like that and you’ve stewed on it for over a year and are now venting.

I’m glad your situation worked out, but it very could have easily ended in a different scenario for a different woman who could be sitting right now regretting a child and hating her life.

You come to a forum for advice, surely any adult knows not to take every single post to heart and use their own brain to assess the situation and the advice and do what they they need to do. Do you think everyone who posts LTB should be blindly listened to? No, of course not, so why are you even suggesting that people who say “abortion” are going to massively influence a stranger online?

If you don’t want strangers advice, and it will often be wanky advice, don’t ask for it.

@EarringsandLipstick

You keep pretending that people who don't agree with the point you are making aren't actually understanding the point you are making!

I'm not 'pretending'. You haven't addressed the point, at all, that using emotive language may demean other's sincerely held views, and won't advance respectful dialogue.

I'll leave it there - I don't think we're going to get much further. And I really should go to work now!

The problem is that those "sincerely held views" mean that they desperately want to prevent women from accessing abortion.

Fine, someone can hold their own view about something.

But forcing it onto other people - not ok.

Forcing a woman who desperately doesn't want to be pregnant to stay pregnant IS an emotive topic. There's no getting away from that.

You say blasé, other people say pro-choice.

No one is every pressuring the OP's I to termination. They're reminded them it's OK to consider it as an option..

It's not a baby until the female decides it is, until then it's an embryo or a fetus, which is essentially a bunch of cells which once fully grown and delivered becomes a baby. Its only referred to as a baby before delivery when the female decides to continue with the pregnancy.

I am in agreement with everything you said in your opening post @Nothanksloveimfine

@PinkSyCo

To me it would be the same as having a mole removed. A mass of unwanted cells that could or would cause harm if not dealt with.

Really? Maybe I should tell my daughter, who is currently distraught after recently miscarrying a bunch of cells, this. That should cheer her up.

Ang again! What has the heartfelt misery of one woman 's loss got to do with another womans choice?

It is entirely possible to empathise with your daughter without negating the choice of many other women.

I agree with you OP. Wholeheartedly.

@PinkSyCo

To me it would be the same as having a mole removed. A mass of unwanted cells that could or would cause harm if not dealt with.

Really? Maybe I should tell my daughter, who is currently distraught after recently miscarrying a bunch of cells, this. That should cheer her up.

Oh please … hopefully she should go on to produce another bunch of cells and it’ll form a lovely human for her, lets not kid ourselves. For somebody to have a miscarriage biology is working it’s magic there is something wrong with the clump of cells and that’s why her body isn’t allowing it to continue.

[quote Madrenetterhere]@talkingcat

Oh Jesus you want me to do this? Lol

www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S1521693419300458

From this 70 percent of abortions no contraception was used.
The other 30 percent contraception was used. (Of that there will be contraception failure a genuine case of, and there will be also ineffective use of contraception which lead to contraception failure) there's a difference do you understand?!
Guttenmacher - will tell you the same thing

I haven't looked at planned parenthood there's no point and I've no time

You are chatting shit. I'm embarrassed for u.

FYI I was a midwife and I spent two years working in an abortion clinic. I know what I'm saying who are you again?![/quote]
@Madrenetterhere I also worked as a midwife for awhile before changing to OT, which is why I know you are talking garbage. I have the images but I can't post them, but Guttmacher shows that 52% of women seeking an abortion were on contraception.

So you are wrong.

Clear, plain and simple.

@Jaguarana

I agree with you, OP. Every word.

Me too. Whilst it's necessary, it's sad too, and the loss of a baby's life.

I prefer that to ‘every child is a blessing’ ‘you’ll find a way to cope’ rhetoric.

Children are hardwork, expensive and if you’re a woman then they can severely limit your choices in life - more so if you’re a single parent.

@PinkSyCo

To me it would be the same as having a mole removed. A mass of unwanted cells that could or would cause harm if not dealt with.

Really? Maybe I should tell my daughter, who is currently distraught after recently miscarrying a bunch of cells, this. That should cheer her up.

@PinkSyCo I've been through 3 miscarriages so I can empathise with how your daughter is feeling. To me every baby lost was never just a bunch of cells, they were a baby that I was planning a future with. I hope your daughter is ok, she will get through it with time but it is an awful thing to go through. I'm currently now 17 week's pregnant and this baby also never started out as just a bunch of cells. Sending love x

@PinkSyCo

To me it would be the same as having a mole removed. A mass of unwanted cells that could or would cause harm if not dealt with.

Really? Maybe I should tell my daughter, who is currently distraught after recently miscarrying a bunch of cells, this. That should cheer her up.

I'm very sorry your daughter is having to go through that. At the same time, there is a clear difference between miscarriage of a wanted pregnancy and a deliberate choice to terminate.

@Dontbeaneejit

I agree op. Currently 12 weeks pregnant and terms like "a mass of unwanted cells" make me feel quite sick. It's not. It's a baby. Plain and simple.

It’s only a mass of cells for a very short time. I really think there needs to better education perhaps around the stages of embryo and fetal development?

By 7/8 weeks a fetus is recognisable as a human fetus even on a scan and even more so when passed. This isn’t just a blastocyst up till 24 weeks. I think there needs to be clear information about stage of development and types of abortion and what it involves. Nobody would have any other type of procedure without knowing certain information so why would this be any different ?

I am pro choice but I think women deserve and need the facts and not this ‘it’s a blob of jelly/clump of cells’ nonsense. Unless you’re having an abortion no later than 5/6 weeks this is not correct

@Thisismynamenow

You say blasé, other people say pro-choice.

No one is every pressuring the OP's I to termination. They're reminded them it's OK to consider it as an option..

It's not a baby until the female decides it is, until then it's an embryo or a fetus, which is essentially a bunch of cells which once fully grown and delivered becomes a baby. Its only referred to as a baby before delivery when the female decides to continue with the pregnancy.

That's some pretty amazing cognitive dissonance.