To be shocked by how blasé alot of MNers are about abortion

[Nothanksloveimfine]

Yes its healthcare, yes free and safe abortion is completely necessary because the alternative doesn't bare thinking about, yes everybody has a right to choose what's best for them and yes I am pro choice (whilst being explicitly pro life with regards to my own pregnancies)

With all that said and done, I am quite alarmed at how a sizable % of MNers are so blase about abortions. Whenever a poster is talking about being pregnant with an unplanned baby and in a less than perfect situation, I see alot of posters urging her to just have a termination like its a routine stroll through the park.

I've just read a heartbreaking article which is being discussed at the minute and some of the replies on that thread are so cold. It made me cry and I'm wondering how the hell people can read that and not be impacted by it, completely steamrolling over the tragic loss of life by saying things like "that's a rare case" abortion is a good thing bla bla bla.

Does anybody else share my view or am I the odd one out?

It's like people are so determined to bang the "right to abort" drum, they have no regard for the babies whatsoever.

Abortion can be totally necessary but it's also pretty sad IMO.

You can care about the mother without being so cold and dismissive of the baby they were carrying.

Caring about the babies doesn't mean I hate women, I am one.

Yes I've name changed because I don't expect this will go down well here.

@theleafandnotthetree

I'm sort of with you OP, I see abortion as something which should be available of course but should never be treated lightly or as another poster has said, akin to getting a mole removed. The wild celebrations by some here in Ireland when the last abortion referendum was passed left a very bad taste in my mouth. I agreed with the result but I didn't see it as some great triumph worth whooping and cheering about. It was necessary but it seemed that for some, celebrating the women's rights aspect of it overrode any other considerations. You can agree with, even fight for the right for women to have safe abortions without shame and still see abortion as something sad and less than ideal.

Wow, you really can't see why women in Ireland were triumphant about this? After how unmarried pregnant women in Ireland have historically been treated?

Do you think it helps women to hold your viewpoint? People on here talk about the trauma etc, do you not think it is vastly less traumatic for a woman to do something YOU consider to be awful if the language around it removes emotion and presents it as a purely medical decision? Why do you want women to feel worse about what's right for them? It's very misogynistic, basically saying go ahead and make your decision, but I think you should suffer and punish yourself for it.

To those who say as late as necessary, would you agree with abortion at full term?
What about sex selective abortions?

I'm really conflicted about it tbh.

You keep pretending that people who don't agree with the point you are making aren't actually understanding the point you are making!

I'm not 'pretending'. You haven't addressed the point, at all, that using emotive language may demean other's sincerely held views, and won't advance respectful dialogue.

I'll leave it there - I don't think we're going to get much further. And I really should go to work now!

Haven't read further than the first page yet but I'm pro-choice and have had more than one abortion and it was not akin to 'having a mole removed.' It was an unpleasant experience and I doubt many women go through it completely devoid of emotion.

I also agree that a lot of people here will continue to push abortion when the OP's setup isn't perfect, even if the OP has already stated that she wants to go ahead with a pregnancy. It's weird.

I disagree with your description of abortion as “tragic loss of life”. That is goady and needlessly dramatic. To me, a tragedy is the death of a wanted baby after 12 weeks or the death of a living person.

What I find disturbing is the sheer number of posters openly urging or manipulating the OP into having an abortion, and these don't get deleted. They'll say things like "Seriously, OP? You want to bring a child into this situation? You really think you can graduate, look after your autistic son and have a baby? I know what I'd do in your situation ". Or the OP will say that the idea of aborting breaks her heart, and people will say things like "Think VERY VERY carefully about what you're doing", or urge her to get a termination sooner rather than later if she's in 2 minds. As if to make her feel irresponsible and foolish for wanting to keep her child. And these comments are rarely deleted you're right, on the issue of abortion people (usually men but, according to MN, women too) can be incredibly heartless and insensitive. This makes it harder to actually support or counsel the woman after she's had an abortion. You can't refer to the baby as a "retained product of conception" and simultaneously comfort a woman who is grieving the loss of her child. Whatever your view on abortion, it involves a woman giving up her own child. Talking about that child as if it's just a piece of tissue is profoundly cruel and makes it impossible to provide her with real support.

So what if people remind women of their options which include abortion? It IS an option. Says more about you OP that you've tallied up the replies and you've noticed more suggestions of abortion. To be honest I haven't noticed this at all.

@Madrenetterhere Perhaps you should do some research before posting such harmful misinformation (on both 'women don't use contraception' and 'the heart is fully formed'). You are ill-informed.

"The human heart is not fully formed until much later in pregnancy than previously thought, a new study suggests.

British researchers analyzed scans of the hearts of healthy fetuses in the womb and found that the heart has four clearly defined chambers in the eighth week of pregnancy, but does not have fully organized muscle tissue until the 20th week."
www.medicinenet.com/script/main/art.asp?articlekey=167987

www.livescience.com/65501-fetal-heartbeat-at-6-weeks-explained.html

@AskingforaBaskin

To me it would be the same as having a mole removed. A mass of unwanted cells that could or would cause harm if not dealt with.

This. I'm very maternal but it's not a baby, it can't survive outside my body.

OP I totally agree with you . I wish with my heart that there was never a need for abortion but I know that will never be the case. Unfortunately, to spare women the emotional turmoil, any unborn baby has been reduced in terminology to a ' clump of cells' or a ' lump of jelly' . That is why the pro life protesters try and show photos to dispel this myth. We are all just a clump of cells' if you think about it.
I also hate the lazy arguments around the issue that to dislike abortion makes you a woman hater. And that pro lifers do nothing to help pregnant women. I know so many people who have adopted children and I know others who support young single mums. It is just lazy to say no one does anything or cares.
The reason why the argument " If you don't want an abortion don't have one" carries no weight for me is that it is actually a moral issue and therefore cannot just be an individual decision each time and that is why there is legislation. Most women recognise this which is why not many support removing legislation and allowing free access to abortion up until birth for any reason. Many women accept there is a point at which it really should only be allowed if the woman or babies life is endangered.
The reason it is so tricky is that it is one moral issue over another and forcing a woman to carry an unwanted baby to term is also a horrendous thing. There is no easy answers and the focus to me should be avoiding unwanted pregnancies in the first place.
I think it has become so accepted that the number of abortions just because timing is inconvenient have risen hugely. They would not be unwanted babies if carried to term so again, the argument " would you prefer that baby is born to a mother who doesn't want it?" does not hold for a large percentage of the situations discussed on MN. I found myself pregnant twice at times that were not convenient( IE a few weeks after having given birth) I did not WANT those babies at the time I tested positive. However, abortion was not an option for me so I got my head around the fact that it was not ideal but was going to happen, and by the 12 week scan, when I was told there was no heartbeat, I was devastated, and in fact, still cry 18 years on when I remember it. In just a few weeks of knowing I was pregnant and getting used to the idea, I had grown the love that 'inconvenience'. I believe that would be the case for a large proportion of abortions that currently take place. They would not be unwanted, unloved babies, they would just make life a bit more challenging for a while.
To me, all life is precious and if we stop believing this we start down a slippery road.

Completely agree with you OP.

I find the comments on the abortion threads here awful. The foetus/ baby's life is given no value.

it has no value in any realistic sense - as opposed to a living breathing woman with a life and possibly dependent children, and suggesting it does is pointless especially to a woman who is asking for help and advice.

Everything in life is a matter of perspective, one woman's clump of cells that she will abort is another woman's longed-for potential baby etc. There is no "one size fits all" in these discussions.

But what i want to see from the anti-abortion lobby is much much much more empathy for women in very difficult situations and not airy-fairy talk about how babies are lovely and you'll love it when it's here. I want to see practical help - to get down to brass tacks: money and other support until either the child can support itself, or there is need to support further (mother's live improves/changes so that she no longer needs help, decision to come from her)

[quote GreenTeaBean]@SockFluffInTheBath
The fact that you asked for a reason demonstrates that you know there is nuance. There are circumstances where you do not believe it is appropriate to have an abortion at 37 weeks.
That's all I'mtrying to persuade you of. It isn't blank and white. It is nuanced.[/quote]
Yesterday was wall-to-wall attention-seeking idiots, and it looks like today will be the same. Not sure why you’re so desperate to score points here but crack on. I’m pro-choice, no ifs or buts.

When you give someone (even, gasp, a silly woman) free will then they will sometimes do things you agree with, and sometimes do things you don’t agree with.

I’m going for a shower. In my absence feel free to continue to nitpick and try to look clever.

I agree OP but you will get loads of people telling you you're not really pro choice if you feel that way.
I agree that abortions should absolutely be available to any woman that wants/needs one BUT I find the process of abortion and what it is very upsetting. That's OK to say that and doesn't make me any less pro choice.

I see far more encouragement from idiots sometimes on here telling highly unsuitable parents in very difficult situations to just have the baby it’ll be absolutely fine, it won’t be fine at all it’ll be a car crash.

And of course the posters encouraging the situation will not have to deal with any of the fallout.

This is difficult for me as I've never had an abortion but I have had 3 miscarriages, including a MMC with twins, and with every pregnancy as soon as I see those two lines I'm having a baby, not a bunch of cells. Having said that, I understand that some people see it as just a bunch of cells, especially if they feel it's the only way to view it if they have a abortion and want to protect their mental health.

I am pro choice, I think everyone's circumstances are different and that actually an abortion is better than bringing an unwanted baby (which may be for a number of reasons) into the world.

However, what actually really saddens and angers me are those situations where someone wants to not have a baby but their partner does and people suggest they have the abortion in secret and fake a miscarriage. That to me is abhorrent. Having been through it 3 times, including the MMC where I had to go through a D&C because I was too far along, and I couldn't have DH with me at all due to the pandemic, I think that faking a miscarriage is a blasé suggestion and that angers me greatly.

As for abortion, I totally get that it's down to the individual and most people are just trying to suggest and offer advice which they think is helpful and practical.

YANBU I agree with you absolutely. I’ve seen so many threads where abortion is pushed, even when the mother is happy with the pregnancy! It’s always treated on here like going to get your car washed - 0 implication of any emotional issues

@2KidsNoTime

It's just a difference of opinion and viewpoint. Not people being actively 'blase' or 'banging the abortion drum'.

For me, if I fell pregnant now, it wouldn't be right. We've completed our family and I love my 2DC to bits but definitely don't need or want any more! For me, I wouldn't be viewing the cells as a baby and thinking of all the cute baby and child events those cells could eventually become - it wouldn't be a baby to me, because I don't want a baby. I would get an abortion without much thought to it... and I don't think that's a problem tbh.

On MN, my experience is that I rarely if ever have seen posters actively encouraging OP's to get abortions. But you'll often see people reminding OPs of options, and giving their opinions about what they'd do in such circumstances. That's kind of the whole point of this forum, right?

Really? On such posts I see loads of comments trying to persuade the woman, quite, brazenly, to have an abortion.

I agree with you Op, I see the coldness you describe in many threads. It’s ok for people to give their opinion and it to be different to yours, but I find it strange that some posters think the coldness is not there. Particularly it’s the posters urging abortion up to full term for any reason, that give me the chills.

[quote TheCrowFlies]@SockFluffInTheBath
Are you in favour of abortion at 37 weeks?
I doubt it.
This is nuanced. [/quote]
But irrelevant to the OP, which is about MN purportedly being cavalier about recommending abortion in general and particularly because we're not wringing our hands while doing so. It's not about late abortions.

I think the opposite actually. When I posted something similar I got 3 private messages all pro life, not being pushing but basically telling me to think about options etc. i don’t think anyone spoke about a termination as if it was an easy option.

I see your point OP. It's a bit like LTB. Very easy to say but in real life much harder the do.

I'm pro choice. I sometimes think late abortions for lifestyle reasons are a bit grim (a friend just changed her mind at 20 weeks which I did wince at). Probably better than growing up unloved and viewed as a mistake though.

Even when I think it's a bit late and selfish I'd defend the woman's right to make that choice and have the facilities available to her. It's her body until that baby is born.

I don't like tattoos either but I think people should be allowed to have them if they want, a more frivolous thing but the same principle.

I don't like your use of the word baby to describe very early pregnancy when abortion is offered.

However looking past that language choice which is usually a tell of anti-abortion movement members and taking you and your post in good faith I can see your point.

When a woman has been made aware of all options continual reminders that abortion is an option can feel like pressure. However I would say on MN that's unlikely to be deliberate. On a fast paced thread many members can say the same thing at once and not realise and then one woman had been told an abortion is an option many times. In real time it looks like cross posting or people joining who didn't rtft but of you read back later it can appear differently.

[quote TheCrowFlies]@SockFluffInTheBath
Are you in favour of abortion at 37 weeks?
I doubt it.
This is nuanced. [/quote]
I am. For medical reasons I think termination should be at any point in the pregnancy. I also agree with child euthanasia up to a year if the child has severe medical needs which cannot get better and cause them immense pain. I think it's selfish to bring a child into this world with severe medical needs that will never get better.