To be shocked by how blasé alot of MNers are about abortion

[Nothanksloveimfine]

Yes its healthcare, yes free and safe abortion is completely necessary because the alternative doesn't bare thinking about, yes everybody has a right to choose what's best for them and yes I am pro choice (whilst being explicitly pro life with regards to my own pregnancies)

With all that said and done, I am quite alarmed at how a sizable % of MNers are so blase about abortions. Whenever a poster is talking about being pregnant with an unplanned baby and in a less than perfect situation, I see alot of posters urging her to just have a termination like its a routine stroll through the park.

I've just read a heartbreaking article which is being discussed at the minute and some of the replies on that thread are so cold. It made me cry and I'm wondering how the hell people can read that and not be impacted by it, completely steamrolling over the tragic loss of life by saying things like "that's a rare case" abortion is a good thing bla bla bla.

Does anybody else share my view or am I the odd one out?

It's like people are so determined to bang the "right to abort" drum, they have no regard for the babies whatsoever.

Abortion can be totally necessary but it's also pretty sad IMO.

You can care about the mother without being so cold and dismissive of the baby they were carrying.

Caring about the babies doesn't mean I hate women, I am one.

Yes I've name changed because I don't expect this will go down well here.

@TheCrowFlies

I agree OP. Nuanced discussion of abortion is rare. Either you're pro choice or you're not. There is a catastrophic lack of critical thinking on this subject. There are pro abortion activists in the US who argue in favour of full term abortions (after 37 weeks). Very few of us would be in favour of that, in fact most of us would have objections to an abortion taking place after 23 weeks. I have my own views on this, but the point is that it is a nuanced debate. The pro life side have lost the culture war on this, and any discussion has become polarised. This is to the detriment of sensible discussion and consequently policy decisions on abortion provision, You are allowed to be in favour of a womans right to choose abortion (in most cases) and to also consider that it would be better if no one ever needed an abortion without being excluded from the conversation for being, god forbid, pro life. The accusation of being 'pro life' is a silencing technique, similar to the accusation of 'transphobe' in discussions around women's rights.

Also spot on.

@Madrenetterhere

You are in the minority op and I stand with you. Contraception is easily available yet people don't bother with it like they should cause popping the morning after pill or getting an abortion is so easy. And blah blah yes I know rape and yes I know its not 100 percent effective but the vast majority of abortions could of been prevented if the people engaging in sex had used Protection in the first instance. Of course that means using your initiative and taking self responsibility and let's be honest most folks just don't....

@Madrenetterhere Peer-reviewed, published medical journal evidence shows that most women who seek terminations WERE on contraception and it failed.

So why do you assume women who get pregnant generally weren't using contraception, only you know, but it is an ill-informed prejudice. People seek an abortion because they were using contraception that failed.

@DropYourSword

'Gestational slavery' as the depiction of someone being 'pro-life' (I do hate that term) is not respectful. You know it.

What on earth else would you call it if a woman desperately doesn't want to be pregnant but is forced to keep it and is denied an abortion.
I think gestational slavery covers it just fine.

But that's your view.

Someone who held different views would describe it differently.

You can disagree with them, without being derogatory in your approach.

@MarilynValentine

I support a woman’s right to choose and oppose anyone (like you OP) who wants to fatten the discourse that women should feel guilt, that abortion is something to wring your hands over and self flagellate.

You are adding a foul little drip of judgement to the discussion.

Hear hear

[quote pattish]@AskingforaBaskin

I’ve reported your post. It is highly offensive to anyone who has either been pregnant, lost a baby, had a termination or had a child.[/quote]
Don't be ridiculous

Bringing an unwanted baby into the world is more callous to me.

This, absolutely. And in that scenario, it's not just a baby, it's a child then an adult, who has to deal with being unwanted all their lives. Isn't it much "sadder" the amount of unloved people in the world with a whole heap of problems that then gets passed on and on and on? It shocks me how blase some people are about that, getting misty-eyed about babies and generally much less preoccupied with supporting damaged adults who aren't so cute.

You expect a group of mums to be 100% all Pro choice?

Yes @Brideandprejudice I do. I expect every woman here to support the choice of every other woman.

I expect reasonable debate, without any overly emotional language, guilt laden statements.

I expect a lot of different beliefs, viewpoints, decisions, discussions, debates.

But I expect them ALL to be pro choice

Early abortion is just removing some cells. It’s not a baby.
Throwing away an apple seed is not disgracing an apple.

Gosh it must be hours since we had yet another new poster who is so "totally pro choice BUT..."

As early as possible, as late as necessary, no buts.

But that's your view.
Someone who held different views would describe it differently.
You can disagree with them, without being derogatory in your approach.

I haven't been in the least derogatory @EarringsandLipstick. I also did ask what else you would call it - what is your suggestion?

funnily enough it's not the people opposing abortion that are all about providing support for lone parents. They're the opposite.

I agree completely. It was part of the reason I voted how I did (in Ireland). The harshness, lack of empathy, moral judgment, lack of support for lone parents that came from those opposing the introduction of abortion legislation really pushed me to vote yes.

And blah blah yes I know rape

Jesus wept!

Frankly I think if you see opinions that differ from yours it is a good thing and it exposes you to different schools of thought. Echo Chambers are dangerous as it means you don't see the surprises coming.

I know there are misogynists and pro lifers ( gestational slavery, forced birthers) out there. I don't come across many/ any in real life in my intimate social circle, so I appreciate being exposed to their thought process. This means I can try and assess and gauge their impact on people who think like me.

I had two abortions, three children and one miscarriage. I feel no emotion at all for the three pregnancies I did not carry to full term.

And I hope that helps those actually making the decision. That it does not have to be a desperately sad, guilt ridden experience and can be positive. It does not help, at all, to imply that there should be self loathing if you decide to do what is best in your circumstance. That is co-ercive.

If you are unsure, seek advice and support. You may need a lot of it, or you may not. But do not be swayed the opinion of someone on the Internet who absolutely will not to be there , if you feel guilted on some dubious moral high ground, to physically support you and financially help you raise a baby to adulthood.

I'm currently waiting for an appointment for my 2nd termination. Despite contraception I'm extremely fertile this is my 6th/7th pregnancy but that doesn't mean I'm just going to keep churning out babies.

I feel no guilt about the first an very much doubt I will this time either. Caring for the children I have is the priority here.

Hopefully it'll be the last as we're booking dh for the snip finally but no, in all honesty aside from a day in bed and a bit of discomfort I see it as no different to any other medical appointment tbh. I won't even have any time off work for it.

@EarringsandLipstick

It's not my fault you have a problem with ordinary English terms.

I'm not going to reply to you beyond this as your posts are argumentative and unwilling to engage with my points. You are also insulting me.

It's a loaded, derogatory term. Words have meanings, significance and resonance. They are not always 'ordinary English terms'

I do not agree with the views of the 'pro-life' movement. I am not offering a defence

I am simply saying that it's possible and should be important to express views in a measured way, without demeaning another's beliefs. (I'm not talking about me: I don't hold these views)

You've chosen to ignore my main point, and any nuance, and be rude to me. Which shuts down any debate.

@EarringsandLipstick You are attacking me because you have a problem with an English term in usage, as if I made up the term and am personally responsible for it.

You may not like the term. But it exists. I am not at fault for it being in English usage. I am not at fault for creating it. The term exists and it legally and adequately describes the removal of a woman's human rights, and subjugating her to slavery.

Your problem is with the term. I didn't create the term. You've chosen to take umbridge at me for using an English term in common usage, to be rude to me, and ignore the reasons for the term. It is you trying to shut down debate, all because you don't like a basic English term in common usage.

I agree 100% op.
It's suggested as though the pregnant woman cannot possibly have thought of it herself.
Practically speaking yes, it's cells as pp's like to point out however nobody would ever say that to someone going through a miscarriage or struggling to conceive.
Yes abortion is an option, everyone knows that and not everyone will see it as an option for them and that's fine

@TheCrowFlies I agree with what you say, I think the position is nuanced.

Someone early in the thread said that you are either pro-choice or you are not.

I support a woman's right to choose when the foetus is not viable. I think there are difficult questions about where the limit is set which I have not grappled with. I do not support the right to choose at full term. I can't be comfortable with the view that to kill a viable foetus the day before a planned delivery date would be fine, but to kill it the day after delivery would be murder. I suspect a majority of people would feel the same.

Does this mean I'm not pro-choice?

I’ve never seen people blasey advising abortion, usually it’s based on what the poster has written and is best for them in the circumstances

You really don’t sound pro choice at all. You sound pro choice in a narrow set of circumstances only,

I had an abortion at 15, it messed me up thinking I’d ‘killed my baby’, for years I felt immense guilt.

Then I had children, and realised the extent of just how hard it is to be a mother, I never regretted that abortion again, it was 100% the right decision and I’m proud I managed to do it.

I think sometimes this being a site predominantly of mothers who realise how mentally, physically and financially exhausting pregnancy, childbirth and motherhood is - makes us very qualified to say when an abortion seems the best solution in a scenario.

I’m pro-choice without any caveats. I’m not blasé about abortion but when it comes to the point a woman is considering it she doesn’t need judgement and emotionally blackmailing bullshit calling an embryo a baby. I think a lot of MN feels the same.

@EarringsandLipstick *But that's your view.

Someone who held different views would describe it differently.

You can disagree with them, without being derogatory in your approach.*

It's not a 'view'. It's a fact. It's an actual fact that you cannot argue against. You are extremely argumentative and are trying to shut down discussion simply because you don't like a term that very adequately describes the situation. Like the term, don't like the term. But don't call it derogatory when it's not, and don't try to tell people what they can and cannot say. Engage with the topic and stop being nitpicking and abusive.

@Penzinola

Abortion can be totally necessary but it's also pretty sad IMO.

Well mine wasn't at all. I was 19 and in an abusive relationship. I did not regret it at the time and felt no sadness. 20 years later I do not regret it and feel no sadness.

Same here. No regrets, no sadness.

@SockFluffInTheBath
Are you in favour of abortion at 37 weeks?
I doubt it.
This is nuanced.

I agree, I think it needs to be available and free and all that but yeah I think it's sad. I saw my son at 7 weeks, his heart pounding away, he was a baby, much more than a cluster of cells.

Maybe there is a divide between those who see pregnancy as a passive process and those who see it as something you should choose, and therefore choose wisely. I admit I don't really get the mindset of pregnancy as a passive thing that sometimes just happens but I know that a lot of people do have that mindset.