To be shocked by how blasé alot of MNers are about abortion

[Nothanksloveimfine]

Yes its healthcare, yes free and safe abortion is completely necessary because the alternative doesn't bare thinking about, yes everybody has a right to choose what's best for them and yes I am pro choice (whilst being explicitly pro life with regards to my own pregnancies)

With all that said and done, I am quite alarmed at how a sizable % of MNers are so blase about abortions. Whenever a poster is talking about being pregnant with an unplanned baby and in a less than perfect situation, I see alot of posters urging her to just have a termination like its a routine stroll through the park.

I've just read a heartbreaking article which is being discussed at the minute and some of the replies on that thread are so cold. It made me cry and I'm wondering how the hell people can read that and not be impacted by it, completely steamrolling over the tragic loss of life by saying things like "that's a rare case" abortion is a good thing bla bla bla.

Does anybody else share my view or am I the odd one out?

It's like people are so determined to bang the "right to abort" drum, they have no regard for the babies whatsoever.

Abortion can be totally necessary but it's also pretty sad IMO.

You can care about the mother without being so cold and dismissive of the baby they were carrying.

Caring about the babies doesn't mean I hate women, I am one.

Yes I've name changed because I don't expect this will go down well here.

I mean posters might want to be aware of MRA’s and TRA’s posting on here, this thread is an absolute gift to them.

It's awful that you refer to these women as being cold or dismissive. Everyone is different of course, but most people don't have an abortion just because they can. They do it because it's necessary, and you have no right to judge anyone for how they feel during that process.

I had an abortion when I was 19. I was in a shitty relationship and didn't want to be tied to that man for life, if he was abusive to me then I believed there was every chance that he would be abusive to a child. I felt relief and an overwhelming sense of calm after my abortion. I never felt sad because I knew I had done the right and kinder thing. I would have loved them but that would not have been enough. I was abused, had no job, miles away from family, no friends. I had nothing. Even now I don't feel sad when I think about it, it doesn't mean that I don't care. My life would be horrendously different had I kept that baby. I'm happily married now with 3 children, have had multiple miscarriages that I have mourned. But I do not mourn the loss of my abortion because we would not be in this position had that baby been born.

@Brideandprejudice You expect a group of mums to be 100% all Pro choice?

Why would one not expect a group of mums to be 100% pro-choice? What is the alternative to choice? Forced birth. What mum would support that? Mums especially out of all people, would be expected to be 100% pro-choice , even if they themselves wouldn't have an abortion.

What's the alternative to choice?

There is no demeaning or derogatory way, I said it respectfully and matter of fact and neutral. If you have a problem with respectful, polite plain speak, you need to ask yourself why

Oh c'mon!

'Gestational slavery' as the depiction of someone being 'pro-life' (I do hate that term) is not respectful. You know it.

I just think it's a shame that people cannot respect others' views, even as they strongly disagree, and accept that there can be shades of opinion on this. And, unless the views are being imposed on others, that is ok.

(I accept, and agree it is unacceptable, that the challenge is that those who describe themselves as 'pro-life' do want to impose their views which does prevent women having bodily autonomy)

I would not have the children that I have today know the life that they have had I kept the mistake I made at 20 so absolutely no regrets.

However I do wonder that if abortion hadnt been an option would I have made the mistake in the first place or I would i have dumb sure it didn’t happen in The first place, probably the latter

I've never seen any posts urging someone to get an abortion. In fact, I think women on here are really quite sensitive to the issues others are facing when they don't want to pregnant / weren't planning on being pregnant.

I haven't had an abortion. If I found myself pregnant at this stage of my life I absolutely would and I'd so it with no guilt whatsoever. Bringing an unwanted baby into the world is more callous to me.

I can’t see how you can only be supportive of a woman’s right to choose if you accept there’s no sadness to be linked to abortions? That sounds like a prescriptive way of being pro choice, which doesn’t sound pro choice to me at all.

The reality is many women feel sad and guilty about their own abortions. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with women exploring those feelings instead of those feelings being dismissed.

What you see as blasé or cold, others see as practical and unemotional.

A women who works parts time, already had two children, is on her own and living with her parents, is not in a good place financially to have a third child. Wringing your hands over ‘the baby’ is exactly the sort of thing that makes women choose not to terminate even though they think it might actually be the better option. You sound like your version of pro-choice involves the woman feeling a lot of guilt.

@EarringsandLipstick

There is no demeaning or derogatory way, I said it respectfully and matter of fact and neutral. If you have a problem with respectful, polite plain speak, you need to ask yourself why

Oh c'mon!

'Gestational slavery' as the depiction of someone being 'pro-life' (I do hate that term) is not respectful. You know it.

I just think it's a shame that people cannot respect others' views, even as they strongly disagree, and accept that there can be shades of opinion on this. And, unless the views are being imposed on others, that is ok.

(I accept, and agree it is unacceptable, that the challenge is that those who describe themselves as 'pro-life' do want to impose their views which does prevent women having bodily autonomy)

@EarringsandLipstick Gestational Slavery is an actual term. If you believe a woman should be forced to gestate against her will and give birth against her will, you are subjugating her to gestational servitude. To slavery. As nothing but a broodmare, a battery hen, with no rights. Pro-'life' is certainly not pro-life of the mother. In fact, it is not actually pro-life at all. It is pro slavery and forcing a woman to risk her health in pregnancy and her life in childbirth. So it's actually anti-life.

Gestational Slavery is an actual term and has been in use for many years now. And it accurately describes those who feel woman should have no choice. It's not my fault you have a problem with ordinary English terms.

If you believe an embryo is a ‘baby’ why aren’t you campaigning for better healthcare and science to prevent 25% of those ‘babies’ dying through miscarriage?

'Gestational slavery' as the depiction of someone being 'pro-life' (I do hate that term) is not respectful. You know it.

What on earth else would you call it if a woman desperately doesn't want to be pregnant but is forced to keep it and is denied an abortion.
I think gestational slavery covers it just fine.

I had one, and I think if I had women telling me I should care for the cells I would have felt ashamed that I didn’t, and possibly more traumatised when I went through it.

I am pro choice. I'm glad I live in a country where abortion is safe, legal and easily accessible. I also don't believe that any woman should be wracked with guilt or constantly reminiscing about 'what if' following abortion. Sometimes it really is the only answer and a woman should be able to move on from it without judgement or fear.

But....I do kind of see what op means about this blasé approach. I've seen many videos and articles of women laughing about having an abortion. A relative who works in gyne regularly sees the same people come back for multiple abortions. I know at least 5 people who have had in excess of 3 abortions. Surely there is a better way? We have to take some personal responsibility over our sexual health, it's not that difficult to not get pregnant. Why use abortion repeatedly when there are much more non invasive, safer ways to prevent a pregnancy? Surely it can't be good for your overall health not to mention the additional stress on the NHS. (Waits for someone to mention drinkers, smokers and obesity).

I don't believe there should be any shame in abortion. I also don't feel comfortable with people who make videos laughing about it with theme music such as 'bye bye baby'. I find that crass, sorry. There is a healthy middle ground of supporting the cause but having a bit of respect for the gravity of the situation imo.

@SaySomethingMan

I can’t see how you can only be supportive of a woman’s right to choose if you accept there’s no sadness to be linked to abortions? That sounds like a prescriptive way of being pro choice, which doesn’t sound pro choice to me at all.

The reality is many women feel sad and guilty about their own abortions. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with women exploring those feelings instead of those feelings being dismissed.

Name one person in this thread alone who had said there can never be any sadness linked to an abortion.

Of course there can be. What may posters have said is that it's not an absolute given. There is no "requirement" to feel desperately sad after an abortion. Some women do. Some women don't.

@EarringsandLipstick And, unless the views are being imposed on others, that is ok.

That is exactly where Gestational Slavery comes in. I am not referring to people who wouldn't have an abortion themselves. I am referring to people who want abortion criminalised, who want to take away that choice from a woman. Imposing a view on others, ie imposing an anti-abortion stance on someone, is indeed Gestational Slavery. Because that is the very essence and the very outcome of denying choice. That is why the term exists.

I have a different perspective of Mumsnet to OP in that I feel quite often, I see posters here encouraging women who find themselves pregnant in difficult situations to go ahead with the pregnancy. Maybe I read the posts with too much of my own bias.

Human life is full of suffering. Through my job, I see plenty of children with difficult and challenging lives. I also see plenty of women struggling through very challenging circumstances. Bringing a new life into fruition, I feel, is a much bigger undertaking and decision than a termination.

I am very much pro-choice. I’m fortunate in that I have never needed an abortion, but I’m glad the option exists should I require it.

@AskingforaBaskin

I’ve reported your post. It is highly offensive to anyone who has either been pregnant, lost a baby, had a termination or had a child.

I agree OP.

Nuanced discussion of abortion is rare. Either you're pro choice or you're not. There is a catastrophic lack of critical thinking on this subject.
There are pro abortion activists in the US who argue in favour of full term abortions (after 37 weeks). Very few of us would be in favour of that, in fact most of us would have objections to an abortion taking place after 23 weeks. I have my own views on this, but the point is that it is a nuanced debate.
The pro life side have lost the culture war on this, and any discussion has become polarised. This is to the detriment of sensible discussion and consequently policy decisions on abortion provision,
You are allowed to be in favour of a womans right to choose abortion (in most cases) and to also consider that it would be better if no one ever needed an abortion without being excluded from the conversation for being, god forbid, pro life.
The accusation of being 'pro life' is a silencing technique, similar to the accusation of 'transphobe' in discussions around women's rights.

@hiyageorgie42

I am pro choice. I'm glad I live in a country where abortion is safe, legal and easily accessible. I also don't believe that any woman should be wracked with guilt or constantly reminiscing about 'what if' following abortion. Sometimes it really is the only answer and a woman should be able to move on from it without judgement or fear.

But....I do kind of see what op means about this blasé approach. I've seen many videos and articles of women laughing about having an abortion. A relative who works in gyne regularly sees the same people come back for multiple abortions. I know at least 5 people who have had in excess of 3 abortions. Surely there is a better way? We have to take some personal responsibility over our sexual health, it's not that difficult to not get pregnant. Why use abortion repeatedly when there are much more non invasive, safer ways to prevent a pregnancy? Surely it can't be good for your overall health not to mention the additional stress on the NHS. (Waits for someone to mention drinkers, smokers and obesity).

I don't believe there should be any shame in abortion. I also don't feel comfortable with people who make videos laughing about it with theme music such as 'bye bye baby'. I find that crass, sorry. There is a healthy middle ground of supporting the cause but having a bit of respect for the gravity of the situation imo.

I agree with this 100%.

[quote pattish]@AskingforaBaskin

I’ve reported your post. It is highly offensive to anyone who has either been pregnant, lost a baby, had a termination or had a child.[/quote]
How bloody ridiculous

Completely agree op - I think it has been normalised too much when at the end of the day it is still killing a baby.
I don't think the option should be taken away from women but I definately don't think it should be as common or said as blasé as it is currently is

@EarringsandLipstick

you want abortion to be kept hush hush and swept under the carpet!

How did you get that from what the poster wrote?

I really dislike when posters share a considered view and are mocked and their points minimised like this.

It's ok to disagree and hold alternate views - on either side. It's the imposition of views - on either side - that's wrong.

What's so disappointing - and was evident so much in Ireland - is that there is no space for middle ground, to consider the widest set of supports that women need, for unwanted pregnancies, but also around opportunity, support, education. Abortion should form part of these.

But funnily enough it's not the people opposing abortion that are all about providing support for lone parents. They're the opposite.

Just look at what is happening in the US. The pro-lifers are broadly in support of small state intervention, reduced public medical aid, oh, and in some cases abolishing the age of consent. www.salon.com/2022/04/05/tennessee-push-to-abolish-age-limit-on-heterosexual-marriages-amidst-groomer-outrage/

If you want to reduce the numbers of abortions, campaign first for better sex education, better counselling for women in abusive relationships, better support for lone parents, better support for children's services, more mental health support for young women. It won't eliminate abortions because there are always going to be unwanted pregnancies but it could well reduce them. And is far preferable to all the guilting that goes on. Why make an already difficult decision even worse.

It's not my fault you have a problem with ordinary English terms.

I'm not going to reply to you beyond this as your posts are argumentative and unwilling to engage with my points. You are also insulting me.

It's a loaded, derogatory term. Words have meanings, significance and resonance. They are not always 'ordinary English terms'

I do not agree with the views of the 'pro-life' movement. I am not offering a defence

I am simply saying that it's possible and should be important to express views in a measured way, without demeaning another's beliefs. (I'm not talking about me: I don't hold these views)

You've chosen to ignore my main point, and any nuance, and be rude to me. Which shuts down any debate.