To be shocked by how blasé alot of MNers are about abortion

[Nothanksloveimfine]

Yes its healthcare, yes free and safe abortion is completely necessary because the alternative doesn't bare thinking about, yes everybody has a right to choose what's best for them and yes I am pro choice (whilst being explicitly pro life with regards to my own pregnancies)

With all that said and done, I am quite alarmed at how a sizable % of MNers are so blase about abortions. Whenever a poster is talking about being pregnant with an unplanned baby and in a less than perfect situation, I see alot of posters urging her to just have a termination like its a routine stroll through the park.

I've just read a heartbreaking article which is being discussed at the minute and some of the replies on that thread are so cold. It made me cry and I'm wondering how the hell people can read that and not be impacted by it, completely steamrolling over the tragic loss of life by saying things like "that's a rare case" abortion is a good thing bla bla bla.

Does anybody else share my view or am I the odd one out?

It's like people are so determined to bang the "right to abort" drum, they have no regard for the babies whatsoever.

Abortion can be totally necessary but it's also pretty sad IMO.

You can care about the mother without being so cold and dismissive of the baby they were carrying.

Caring about the babies doesn't mean I hate women, I am one.

Yes I've name changed because I don't expect this will go down well here.

And CatWomanDo, and thank you for a great post.

@redglobox

YANBU. I find the comments on the abortion threads here awful. The foetus/ baby's life is given no value. If the OP shows any sign of considering abortion there are dozens of replies vigorously supporting that choice. Posters who don't do so are torn to shreds, however respectfully they disagree. It's one of those topics here where there's only one acceptable viewpoint.

If those who disagree refrain from overly emotive language, emotional blackmail, they rarely get any disgreement. They become part of an extended discussion that covers a lot of ground. There are many, many instances of this across MN, over many years.

It is only those who choose to apply emotional pressure that get told to fuck off!

Wow, Pro lifers are suddenly crawling all over Mumsnet….or could it be another group who are so desperate to discredit Mumsnet that being able to show a thread like this would work out very nicely for them?

@redglobox

YANBU. I find the comments on the abortion threads here awful. The foetus/ baby's life is given no value. If the OP shows any sign of considering abortion there are dozens of replies vigorously supporting that choice. Posters who don't do so are torn to shreds, however respectfully they disagree. It's one of those topics here where there's only one acceptable viewpoint.

Well that's not true. Pro choice means they can choose either way and support it. If someone is pro life they won't provide a woman with all the options because they believe it is either keep the baby or adoption. You can't respectfully disagree a woman's right to choose.

@theleafandnotthetree

I'm sort of with you OP, I see abortion as something which should be available of course but should never be treated lightly or as another poster has said, akin to getting a mole removed. The wild celebrations by some here in Ireland when the last abortion referendum was passed left a very bad taste in my mouth. I agreed with the result but I didn't see it as some great triumph worth whooping and cheering about. It was necessary but it seemed that for some, celebrating the women's rights aspect of it overrode any other considerations. You can agree with, even fight for the right for women to have safe abortions without shame and still see abortion as something sad and less than ideal.

Ah, I see - you want abortion to be kept hush hush and swept under the carpet! Like in an episode of Call The Midwife. Okay…

@EdgeOfACoin

I agree with you entirely, OP.

A foetus is a living being. A foetus requires nourishment. It grows. It excretes. It moves. It requires oxygen. It is sensitive to changes in its environment. It fulfils every criteria of life. And it isn't growing into a pumpkin or a potato, it is a human.

Nobody can look at the scan of even a ten week old foetus and be in any doubt as to what they are looking at (hint: not a mole; not an indiscernible mass of cells).

There are some circumstances where an abortion is necessary. But I agree that an abortion is treated as just any other form of birth control - like a condom or the coil - and is utterly trivialised.

But anyone who expressed such a view is automatically condemned as far right, 'anti-choice' and portrayed as wanting to strap rape victims down and force them to give birth. There's a hell of a lot of strawman-ing that goes in in this debate, which is really very tiresome.

@EdgeOfACoin In order to be classified as alive, a fetus must meet all 7 categories:

1. Sensitivity to and response to stimuli
2. Growth and change
3. Maintain homeostasis
4. Maintain energy metabolism
5. Procreate
6. Be made of one or more cells
7. Pass traits onto one or more offspring

A fetus only meets 4 of these categories - 1 [partially around 14 weeks gestation], 2, 3, and 6.

A fetus is not able to breathe or eat on its own. It derives everything from the pregnant person, whom it is connected to via the umbilical cord - meaning the fetus is neither separate nor a human being. A fetus also lacks sufficient brain activity until at least 26 weeks gestation - another important classification of life - meaning it is medically, scientifically, and legally braindead.

And no, a fetus is not comparable to a person in a coma or a persistent vegetative state. Neither the coma patient or vegetative person are utilizing another person's body, which is one of the core components of the pro-choice movement - no one and nothing has the right to use a person's body for pleasure or sustenance without affirmative ongoing consent. Consent is not transient. It can be revoked at anytime if one party is uncomfortable with whatever is taking place.

I don't think it's an easy choice for most women. May be for some of course. Both are fine.

To be anti-choice IS to be pro-Gestational Slavery. It IS to be anti the life of the woman. It's the truth. It is what it is.

No. In your view. And even with your view, it can be provided respectfully.

I am not advocating in anyway for the strident 'pro-life' advocates (which we know all about in Ireland). But I never think it helps anyone to characterise their views in demeaning and derogatory ways.

Agree with you O.P. and understand exactly what you mean.

This is a horrible, shaming thread. Of course people talk about the option of abortion in terms of practicality rather than emotion. Saying "I would never have an abortion but you can have one I guess, even though you're ending a potential life and it's totally devastating because a foetus is a person..." is hardly going to make someone feel secure in their decision to consider abortion, is it? I find it fascinating and horrifying this "pro life" stuff - it seems to be growing on social media and it's not a good thing imo. So much empathy for a foetus, yet zero for the living, breathing woman who has to endure pregnancy and birth and then raise a child. Having had 3 dc, I genuinely feel forced pregnancy and birth should be considered a very real form of torture. I totally disagree people "minimise" abortion. I think people minimise the huge (often negative) impact of pregnancy, birth and parenting in favour of virtue signalling how incredibly sad they find it that a "baby" (it's not even a baby) dies. All this emotive, guilt-tripping, shaming bollocks needs to stop. Look where it ends - some states in the US are even trying to ban abortion in cases of it being ectopic ffs, basically a death sentence for women. I really really hope we are not headed down the same path.

I think for me an early abortion isn’t very different to contraception morally. So I don’t see suggesting abortion to someone who doesn’t want a child and is pregnant as very different to suggesting condoms to someone who doesn’t want a child and isn’t pregnant. Some catholics would agree with me on this of course although would think both are evil rather than both are fine.

I will also say that I find the “just have your lovely baby alone OP” advice very naive for what it’s worth. The likelier scenario if pregnant with an abusive man’s child is that you’re tied to him for years, he’s in and out of the child’s life in a traumatic way, he seeks to control the mother and so on. I’ve seen a friend go through hell for the last nine years with this.

I am able to hold several truths in mind simultaneously

EveSix that's such a considered post. This line stood out for me. It's also how I thought when voting in Ireland's fairly recently abortion referendum. I could not but vote for change, especially having heard so many distressing stories from affected women. I still did so with a sense of grief, as to me, we were talking about human life, and this felt incompatible with my own views. I finally felt that my own personal views could not trump women's bodily autonomy but that sense of 'contrasting truths' was very real.

I support abortion in every circumstance.

@Beefcurtains79

Wow, Pro lifers are suddenly crawling all over Mumsnet….or could it be another group who are so desperate to discredit Mumsnet that being able to show a thread like this would work out very nicely for them?

What do you mean?

It's an anonymous Internet forum, probably in real life as it were if a friend came to them they wouldn't be so quick to suggest it, but when you read someone is with a shit partner, no money, can't cope with the children they have and they come on asking for a magic pill to make their issues dissappear rather than consider the obvious can see why people comment. If someone is in such a vulnerable place where they would go ahead and heed that advice even if it wasn't what they wanted then they should take some self responsibility and not post.

I’ve never seen a poster “urging” someone to get an abortion

@Beefcurtains79

Wow, Pro lifers are suddenly crawling all over Mumsnet….or could it be another group who are so desperate to discredit Mumsnet that being able to show a thread like this would work out very nicely for them?

You expect a group of mums to be 100% all Pro choice?

I find it so shocking and awful that women can still be so cornered, restrained, financially impacted and basically imprisoned by lone parenthood in 2022, and some women's breezy acceptance that is shocking to me.

you want abortion to be kept hush hush and swept under the carpet!

How did you get that from what the poster wrote?

I really dislike when posters share a considered view and are mocked and their points minimised like this.

It's ok to disagree and hold alternate views - on either side. It's the imposition of views - on either side - that's wrong.

What's so disappointing - and was evident so much in Ireland - is that there is no space for middle ground, to consider the widest set of supports that women need, for unwanted pregnancies, but also around opportunity, support, education. Abortion should form part of these.

The idea that women feel wrecked with guilt post-abortion is largely a myth and mostly perpetuated to keep abortion as this “extreme” thing that people would only do as a desperate last resort, OP. Studies have shown time and again that abortions rarely leave any trace of guilt.

I still remember the days when abortion was illegal in my country and the countless lives it affected, mine included. I’ve had an abortion post-legalisation in a perfectly safe environment and barely ever think about it.

If something can’t survive without the host then it’s really not “a baby” and it’s a little disingenuous to say otherwise. What happened with woman regarding the abortion pills is a terrible tragedy, of course, but the likelihood of something like that happening is incredibly small.

I support a woman’s right to choose and oppose anyone (like you OP) who wants to fatten the discourse that women should feel guilt, that abortion is something to wring your hands over and self flagellate.

You are adding a foul little drip of judgement to the discussion.

You are not pro choice

@Cr3ateAUsername

I’ve never seen a poster “urging” someone to get an abortion

You need to read more of the relevant threads then. I have, often.

@EarringsandLipstick

To be anti-choice IS to be pro-Gestational Slavery. It IS to be anti the life of the woman. It's the truth. It is what it is.

No. In your view. And even with your view, it can be provided respectfully.

I am not advocating in anyway for the strident 'pro-life' advocates (which we know all about in Ireland). But I never think it helps anyone to characterise their views in demeaning and derogatory ways.

@EarringsandLipstick There is no demeaning or derogatory way, I said it respectfully and matter of fact and neutral. If you have a problem with respectful, polite plain speak, you need to ask yourself why.

I didn't feel sad after my abortion. I felt deep relief and calmness.

Same here, not bothered if that makes me callous or selfish, I was on contraception which failed and became pregnant at a time when I wouldn't have been able to give the child a decent life- and I didn't want to be a mum at that point. Going through an entire pregnancy and then putting the baby up for adoption also had zero appeal, so I (well me and my then partner) made the decision together. Never regretted it, always been relieved and thankful it was an option.