Christian MIL taking DC to Christian toddler group - I was unaware

[AtheistMama]

Name change for this one.

My MIL does childcare once a week for DS aged 3, for which I am grateful for - they have a great relationship, and obviously it saves us money on nursery fees.

My MIL is a lovely women, not a bad bone in her body. She is also devoutly Christian, belonging to an evangelical church. DH was brought up as an evangelical Christian, but is an atheist and slowly detached himself from their church in his young adulthood. There is no animosity from his mother and the wider family about this (who are mostly also evangelical Christians).

DH and I have been together for 10 years, married for 5, but I have never really talked to MIL about my religious beliefs because she is quite sensitive/easily upset and I didn't want to offend her. The status quo has just been that it is obvious to all that DH and I are not Christian and it's been left at that.

My understanding of DH's families beliefs is that they think everyone who is not baptised is going to Hell; they also do not approve of homosexuality or gay marriage, sex before marriage, etc. I am an atheist and do not subscribe to these beliefs. In particular, the idea that they believe that I am going to Hell bothers me when I think about it. In general, I am anti-organised religion and was never going to bring DS up in any religious way.

MIL takes DS to a toddler's group at her church every week, but I was under the impression that it was open to the whole community and therefore not Christian (I think this came from DH not my MIL). I looked up the group today (was wondering about the timings for a seperate reason), and clocked that they have a Bible story every week.

I'm feeling a bit annoyed because if I had known about the Bible story bit when it was first suggested that she take him (years ago), I would have gently asked her to pick another activity. But now he's been going for a few years, he loves it and it's part of their routine. She would probably be upset by being asked to stop going (and probably it didn't occur to her that I wouldn't be happy about it).

However, I feel really uncomfortable about the Bible story, and annoyed that she didn't say anything at the start. Needless to say, DS has never mentioned it, so it's possible that he's running around the hall and not even listening to it.

DH tends to skirt around issues with his DM that might be upsetting because he thinks she's quite delicate and feels protective about her.

AIBU to bring it up with her now?

I would describe myself as agnostic.

I used to take my kids to the monthly family service at the village church as it seemed a nice "community" thing to do, and the lady who did the service made it fun. There were bible stories but they were told just as stories - the characters would have been obviously Christian to an adult, but to a child they're just people in a story.

Both kids then went to the village school - a standard CofE primary school, where they spent 7 years singing hymns and saying prayers and thanking God for various things.

Both kids decided some way along the line that they didn't believe in God, and now they're at secondary school religion doesn't feature in their lives at all.

I would say that the bible stories they heard in their formative years had zero impact on their beliefs now.

What I would say is that, at that age, most of the religious education revolves around teaching kids to be kind and considerate and helpful, which are values I'm happy with. There was never any fire and brimstone.

@Ponderingwindow

You have been incredibly naive. These community playgroups are always a form of evangelism. The messaging may be relatively simple, but that is part of the point. Religious entities host these community events to get people in the door and start the indoctrination.

This makes me laugh, because it’s exactly what my Dad says, but he still took both mine to various Church toddler groups for years. I think you’re probably right but I also think it’s fine to take them and totally harmless, whatever the motivation of the religious leaders who organise them. The kids are so little I really can’t see it having any affect on their future faith or lack of. I also think they’ll get lots of teaching about Christianity at school, my DC goes to a non Church school and they teach them a lot about Easter and Christmas etc and he comes home and repeats it all as if it’s fact!

I'm curious to know what the supposed harm is in believing in hell.

If X says she believes Y is going to hell and Y doesn't believe in hell, what's the problem?

My Mum always thinks I'm going to crash and die on the M1. I don't agree with her, I get in the car and drive home and I'm not dead when I get there. Her mistaken belief has no bearing on my behaviour nor on my safety.

If my Mum's belief in the danger of my driving on the M1 influenced me enough to change my route, so I went down the A5 instead, I'd be happy, she'd be happy and I'd still get home in one piece.

It's not a "dangerous" belief. It's either wrong or well-founded, but not dangerous.

My family aren't religious, but I went to a small and quite hardcore C of E school, and a very religious leaning Brownie group (meet ups held in a community centre attached to a church). They were all great places, great people and lots of wholesome fun was had. I'm now a respectful, informed atheist.

Sounds like your son will be raised into an open minded immediate family who will let him make his own choices in life, so wouldn't worry too much. But I totally get you. Then again if your son enjoys it and enjoys spending quality time with MIL then that's great.

I understand your concerns but think it's way too late to say anything now, you knew from the start it was a church group and could easily have looked up this information a long time ago. There's no harm really in him knowing Bible stories and if he brings it up to you, you can explain they're just stories and not to be taken literally.

I'm not a Christian and I wouldn't be bothered by this either. It's stories and part of his cultural heritage and some of the bible stories actually contain good messages of tolerance etc - even if you don't believe Jesus was the son of God some of what he said I can agree with.

I've been to several Church run playgroups and non of them had bible stories or any explicit mention of religion. I think one of them did a little story about the nativity at Christmas, but that was it.

The other Church group I went to used to sometimes handout flyers for other Church events but that was all - if they were trying to convert you it was more by being friendly and offering tea and general chat.

I'm really grateful for the Church events and volunteers as they are normally free or small donation. Was really upset when they stopped because of Covid and glad they are back- there are lots of them in my area.

@picklespark

I don’t think there’s anything wrong with a Bible story, but it’s fine to bring it up with her given your beliefs. Knowledge of the Bible is pretty culturally important as a lot of references are made to it in popular culture that you simply won’t “get”. Regardless of your beliefs.

What about a story from the Quran, Dianetics or Siddur?

The indoctrination of children's impressionable minds is abusive.

Pick your battles OP, this isn't really something to get wound up about.
I raised my 3 DC broadly Christian, one is now a witch, one is atheist, one is agnostic. And mine were subjected to a whole lot more indoctrination than a village playgroup that stops at age 4.

I think she takes the tack of being sad about non-believers/gays/unmarried partners going to hell and praying for them, coming from a place of compassion/kindness, rather than condemning them. I don't believe she would ever cut anyone out of her life for something like being gay.

Bloody hell. Bloody bloody hell. So she silently prays for the gays, premarital sexers, and the unsaved (all of whom are condemned to hell for their sins) rather than proselytising her beliefs and this makes the beliefs acceptable or tolerable.

Your MIL is sad that gays are going to hell and you are defending her because she pities them?

I wouldn't be worrued about this. I'm not Christian but went to a CofE school and made my own mind up. My kids also go to a Cof E school and my children were given childrens Bibles. My daughter loves reading the Bible stories, there isn't anything wrong with the stories and as lobb as you give your son the choice as he grows up just as you had then I think it's fine. Learning about other religions is a good thing in my opinion, it helps us underatand where other people are coming from.

I wouldn't worry about it too much. Your children will hear lots of viewpoints and have lots of influences in their lives and a bible story once a week is pretty innocuous tbh.

I went to church and attended girls brigade (off my own back my mum never went to church) for years as a child but I am atheist now (and tbh I didn't ever buy completely into it anyway despair going and being very involved for many years into my teens).

You need to obviously get your views across to your children too but you won't be able to control what views they are exposed to and what they think as they get older. And as long as it's not extreme I would just go with it.

My DS, having never had any involvement with the church or similar, suddenly decided he was a Christian for a period when in primary school. We just discussed different belief systems and religions, and atheism and what I thought and believed. He grew out if it.

I did once attend a Christian wedding once where there was some very strange behaviour going on including people "speaking in tongues" at one point and I took my very young DS out for some of the service as it made me very uncomfortable (despite attending an evangelical church for many years!!) and felt a bit extreme and cult-like, but this doesn't appear to be anything like that.

I'm an atheist. I went to several church-run baby and toddler groups when mine were small. A bible story won't break your children. It will also prepare them for school where they will study Christianity and all the other religions.

I would pick your battles and is this really worth it?

I was taking my baby to a church group and although we didn't have a bible story the group would finish on a thought for the day. The church group was one of the nicest and friendliest groups I went to on mat leave so your mother in law is probably getting so much enjoyment from it - while she is looking after your child do you really want to change it?

Now if she is booked a christening behind your back .... that's another story

Wait until he goes to school OP; even non-religious schools like to peddle bible stories as 'truth' not fiction!

YABU.
She is looking after your son, it sounds like the Christian element of this group is very minimal. He probably doesn't even realise the Christian side and if you asked would talk about the bikes or the other toys.
I went to a CofE school and am an atheist. My kids go to a CofE school (only one in our town) and they quite like the stories and the singing but they realise they are just stories and one element of religion.

I took my very young DS out for some of the service as it made me very uncomfortable (despite attending an evangelical church for many years!!) and felt a bit extreme and cult-like, but this doesn't appear to be anything like that.

You don't think that homophobia, anti-premarital sex (which means "purity" and usually lack of birth control for young women), necessity of salvation or hell is extreme?

Personally I think you are in the wrong . My father was an atheist but we went to Sunday school.

His thinking was always to let us have the tools to make our own decisions in life .

So we should all be open to all opinions / religions/ politics in life and then we are old enough we have the information to make our own judgements .

I think Bible stories generally have a nice moral and will do no harm. You are so lucky with the free childcare I am majorly jealous.

See, this is why you have these discussions when you are dating - well before engagement, let alone married. If you are atheist and you learn that your boyfriend's mother is an extremist or ie evangelical, you iron these things out earlier on. Not wait til you are engaged, let alone married. Let alone have a child. How the heck did you leave this so so soooo very long? I am agnostic and would have decided on ground rules WELLLLLLLL before baby was even here. Especially if I learned, when dating, let alone engaged, let alone married, that my boyfriend's mother was part of a religion that was quite extremist when many Christian churches do not have the beliefs your MIL does. This is something you and your DH should have discussed before you even got serious. So it's a bit too late to discuss this when you married him without even discussing this. I would not allow her to have my child alone unless I had made sure my child was not to go to an evangelical church. You knew how she is, you know you're an atheist, yet didn't even bother to do even the most basic of ground rules before handing your child over to her.

If you were atheist you would not agree to her taking your DS to any church event. Unless you are naive, the intent of these events are obvious, especially when you consider that your MIL is a 'devout' anti-gay, anti sex before marriage fundamentalist Christian. Seriously, she's an extremist, so what did you think would happen, that these church things were 'harmless'?

As always, communication and drawing of boundaries beforehand is most important. If your views on marriage equality and basic equality were important to you, you would have made your MIL aware of this years ago and made sure she knew not to take your child to an evangelical church event. I would not allow her to have my child alone again and I would make absolutely sure she knew why; that I didn't want my child exposed to her beliefs. And that she wouldn't be having my child on her own again until I knew that my child would never be going to one of her 'church events'. She took advantage of your ambivalent attitude to your DS going to these things. That's why you need to make sure from day one that she will never take your child to a religious event. Otherwise, give an inch, they take a mile. She took advantage of your casual nature. You didn't set ground rules from day one, and she took advantage of it. Because of her beliefs, I would not have her doing childcare one day a week. It's too great a risk if you don't want your child to think being gay is wrong or pre-marital sex is wrong. She took advantage of your nature. The question is, will you allow it to happen, or will you put ground rules in place? A toddler is too young to tell you what is going on. If you can afford it as you say you can, put you child in childcare 5 days a week, the reassurance that he will not be dragged to church, proselytised to and brainwashed, is priceless. She would not be doing free (it comes with a 'price' doesn't it) childcare again if it were me. However I take a strong no exceptions line against homophobia and bigotry, and she would not be alone with him if it were me.

@twentythreehundred

I think she takes the tack of being sad about non-believers/gays/unmarried partners going to hell and praying for them, coming from a place of compassion/kindness, rather than condemning them. I don't believe she would ever cut anyone out of her life for something like being gay.

Bloody hell. Bloody bloody hell. So she silently prays for the gays, premarital sexers, and the unsaved (all of whom are condemned to hell for their sins) rather than proselytising her beliefs and this makes the beliefs acceptable or tolerable.

Your MIL is sad that gays are going to hell and you are defending her because she pities them?

There is nothing wrong with that belief and attitude. Well, the belief of going to hell is wrong, but it is what it is. However, if you are to be in contact with religious people, the ones that hold their beliefs to themselves and only police their own behaviour are the better ones to be around, especially if they're genuinely nice people/ family members you actually like.

OP removing MIL from her life is just as bad as MIL removing her son from her life for being an atheist.

The same would apply for deriding her beliefs, or trying to get her to change her mind ,stop believing or doing private things that hurt no one, like praying for people who she believes need that prayer.

I disagree with most organised religions. I also have my own (don't really fit anywhere) beliefs. I've met religious arseholes and atheist arseholes. What they had in common was an absolute belief they were right and others had to act/change according to that. I actually had to drop an atheist friend who always went mental at the fact that I believe in God. That's it, no going to church, no preaching, no actual involvement, I can debate inaccuracies in the Bible and take the piss with the best of them. He just couldn't accept that I believed in God and kept making comments and going on rants and how it's all wrooong.

Preaching is preaching and it sucks no matter which side you are on.

Think of it as bonus enrichment for studying literature many years later! I remember having to analyse a poem in my final year of school that referred obliquely to "the ninety-nine and one" in one line (without lots of other context), and I didn't really know what to say about it or what it meant. If I'd had more Bible verses and stories in my background, I might have twigged, and got a better grade on that particular test!! Nothing to do with believing or not, but just a working knowledge of the Bible is quite useful for all the allusions in English literature (along with a good knowledge of Greek myths etc too!).

So just tell yourself that it's cultural enrichment and knowledge that might come in handy one day.

@HangingRock25

See, this is why you have these discussions when you are dating - well before engagement, let alone married. If you are atheist and you learn that your boyfriend's mother is an extremist or ie evangelical, you iron these things out earlier on. Not wait til you are engaged, let alone married. Let alone have a child. How the heck did you leave this so so soooo very long? I am agnostic and would have decided on ground rules WELLLLLLLL before baby was even here. Especially if I learned, when dating, let alone engaged, let alone married, that my boyfriend's mother was part of a religion that was quite extremist when many Christian churches do not have the beliefs your MIL does. This is something you and your DH should have discussed before you even got serious. So it's a bit too late to discuss this when you married him without even discussing this. I would not allow her to have my child alone unless I had made sure my child was not to go to an evangelical church. You knew how she is, you know you're an atheist, yet didn't even bother to do even the most basic of ground rules before handing your child over to her.

If you were atheist you would not agree to her taking your DS to any church event. Unless you are naive, the intent of these events are obvious, especially when you consider that your MIL is a 'devout' anti-gay, anti sex before marriage fundamentalist Christian. Seriously, she's an extremist, so what did you think would happen, that these church things were 'harmless'?

As always, communication and drawing of boundaries beforehand is most important. If your views on marriage equality and basic equality were important to you, you would have made your MIL aware of this years ago and made sure she knew not to take your child to an evangelical church event. I would not allow her to have my child alone again and I would make absolutely sure she knew why; that I didn't want my child exposed to her beliefs. And that she wouldn't be having my child on her own again until I knew that my child would never be going to one of her 'church events'. She took advantage of your ambivalent attitude to your DS going to these things. That's why you need to make sure from day one that she will never take your child to a religious event. Otherwise, give an inch, they take a mile. She took advantage of your casual nature. You didn't set ground rules from day one, and she took advantage of it. Because of her beliefs, I would not have her doing childcare one day a week. It's too great a risk if you don't want your child to think being gay is wrong or pre-marital sex is wrong. She took advantage of your nature. The question is, will you allow it to happen, or will you put ground rules in place? A toddler is too young to tell you what is going on. If you can afford it as you say you can, put you child in childcare 5 days a week, the reassurance that he will not be dragged to church, proselytised to and brainwashed, is priceless. She would not be doing free (it comes with a 'price' doesn't it) childcare again if it were me. However I take a strong no exceptions line against homophobia and bigotry, and she would not be alone with him if it were me.

I take it you don't celebrate Christmas,Easter, Mother's Day etc?

Bible stories are read in most primary schools in U.K. as large number are Cof E. At 3 I really wouldn’t worry.

Homophobia (homosexuals go to hell and homosexuality is a sin)

Virginity at marriage (which precludes women accessing birth control before marriage)

All people who haven't accepted Jesus as their saviour go to hell (this is prejudiced against all other religions who don't require this for salvation, such as CofE)

These are extremist beliefs. Why would anyone think these are ok to support by sending your toddler there for a playgroup?