To think relationships a bit of a raw deal for women?

[CrushEmAll]

I know there are women who are extremely happy in their relationships, but I believe that’s probably the minority. The vast majority of divorces are filed by women. And of those that remain married, many appear to stay for financial reasons, for the kids etc. I’m not here to bash men (I have sons of my own), but many of them just do not seem to have the emotional intelligence and communication skills (amongst other things), that are required to make a relationship healthy and successful. A few women I know who are past their child bearing years and are still single, seem to have high self esteem and confidence, are financially secure and independent and will not settle. It seems for these women, men have very little to offer them therefore they continue to be single until they find someone who is able to genuinely enhance their lives. And I wonder if it’s a very very small percentage of men who truly will be able to enhance their lives?

You don't mention love!
Relationships are hard work and just to get into one for how it will 'enhance' your life is probably a doomed attitude.

My Granny seemed very happy with her marriage. You do know people are much more noisy when they are unhappy than when they are happy.

I think you might be right because women are often pitied if they are not in a relationship/have children even if the very people pittying them are living with pretty useless man children!

But of course there are many loving relationships.

I’m not here to bash men (I have sons of my own), but many of them just do not seem to have the emotional intelligence and communication skills (amongst other things), that are required to make a relationship healthy and successful.

Why do you think this might be? And what are you doing to ensure your sons do have those skills?

I think this argument could go either way.

My grandmother was born in 1905, married in 1925 to an angry alcoholic. She gave birth to five sons. When my grandfather died she set up a business as a seamstress and never looked at a man or spoke of my grandfather. From her actions I figured she was happy to be on her own.

@Primtemps In honesty, I don't believe love is enough. And I think to love someone is a choice and can be shown in our everyday actions. Not that fluttery feeling that comes and goes. I'm sure the 50% who divorce were in love at some point. It's not enough

Yes, CrushEmAll, (Interesting name), l agree. Not to mention all the hours of housework, life admin, driving, it's like being their line manager. Add to that, the expectation to look a certain way. To attempt balance, Jo Brand said, 'There's one good man, in every village.' I have met a few gentlemen, in my life but only knew them as acquaintances, so didn't really know them. The idea of romantic love is fairly new, around Jane Austen's time. Twas a business deal prior and still pretty much runs that way now, in reality. Just a little anecdote, a male colleague used to enter my office when l was eating an apple, then try to cover his erection by bating it down with one of his legs. He looked like an upturned woodlouse. Ick times a million.

Definitely.
I have a good one so I'm told from friends and family who's partner is shit.

Some days I'd like to throw a bucket of water over him.

He has the advantage from lack of thinking, I do the lions share and more.

He'll always do whatever he is asked but without a nudge he wouldn't motivate.

I'm cranky with him today, in from work at 6pm sitting for the night by 7pm.

meh. I think you mean that women who may have been socialised to put themselves last, or who are not able to articulate their own wants and needs (nurture and/or nature) can be in unhappy relationships.

That's what i see, anecdotally, among friends & acquaintances. I don't know how often i have heard "he cooks? he irons? he washes? he TOO PATERNITY LEAVE FOR OVER A YEAR?? how did you get him to do that" followed by "it's always been like that and if one of us needs help/support we discuss" to be met by a shaking head and "oh, that wouldn't work for us" makes me want to scream.

Is it due to their sex? their gender? gender roles? societal expectations? centuries of conditioning?

Totally agree. My life has only ever been made harder by the men I was in relationships with. I loved them, we had fun sometimes but generally speaking they added nothing of value. I have a successful career, I'm well paid, I'm very able generally, if I wanted children I could do it alone. I know several women who have recently divorced for the same reasons and are flying now they aren't held back. I know it's not true of every relationship but I do think in general the bar for men is so low and as women become more capable and self sufficient men no longer bring enough to the table.

Just a little anecdote, a male colleague used to enter my office when l was eating an apple, then try to cover his erection by bating it down with one of his legs. He looked like an upturned woodlouse.

OP, I think you’re not wrong. The statistics overwhelmingly show that men are much more likely to remarry after being widowed or getting divorced. I think that’s because there’s much more in it for them than for a woman. Equally, married men live longer than unmarried men - women are a ‘good influence’ on men. I think the most recent stats show the gaps narrowing but even so…

You don't mention love! Relationships are hard work and just to get into one for how it will 'enhance' your life is probably a doomed attitude.

I think getting into a long-term relationship on the basis of falling in love with someone, without prioritising whether they will enhance your life is frankly idiotic, and it is that which will likely doom your relationship to failure. The MN Relationships board is strewn with the proof of that.

Romantic love (which, let's face it, is mostly a combination of physical attraction, blind hormonal response and a whole host of personality preferences based on all kinds inclinations resulting from your upbringing, social conditioning etc) might be exciting and fun (because it needs to be, in order to make you have a drive to procreate),but it's a very poor predictor of whether you'll be happy living with that person for the rest of your life.

I don't think relationships should be hard work actually. They are much more likely to be hard work if you're willing to put up with all kinds of shit because of love though.

@Fairislefandango

You don't mention love! Relationships are hard work and just to get into one for how it will 'enhance' your life is probably a doomed attitude.

I think getting into a long-term relationship on the basis of falling in love with someone, without prioritising whether they will enhance your life is frankly idiotic, and it is that which will likely doom your relationship to failure. The MN Relationships board is strewn with the proof of that.

Romantic love (which, let's face it, is mostly a combination of physical attraction, blind hormonal response and a whole host of personality preferences based on all kinds inclinations resulting from your upbringing, social conditioning etc) might be exciting and fun (because it needs to be, in order to make you have a drive to procreate),but it's a very poor predictor of whether you'll be happy living with that person for the rest of your life.

I don't think relationships should be hard work actually. They are much more likely to be hard work if you're willing to put up with all kinds of shit because of love though.

Agree with all of this.

People let romantic love dictate too much.

What about attitudes to money, child rearing, careers, hobbies, the list is far longer than just this.

@Brefugee is right women have been socialised to put themselves last, I have never felt like this. I remember going away on holiday without my family for ten days. It was a wedding and if I’m flying to America I’m not just going for two days. The judgement from other women because I dared leave my children with their Father. I was on a course away from my main office and was travelling to London straight after so had a large suitcase with me. When I said what I was doing you may have thought I had said I was going to go out and commit murder.

YANBU op.
I could count on one finger the amount of women I know in happy relationships. In nearly every case the woman is putting far far more into the relationship than the man.
Women are conditioned to give and give and expect little in return. We are told everything should be 50/50, but how often is that the case? Most of the time the woman takes on most of the emotional labour and shitwork (whilst also being the one damaging their career and risking their life/health to have children)

It's getting worse, not better.

I'm a single mum since my ex husband walked out because it was 'too hard' I'd be happy to never get into another relationship with a man for as long as I live.

I remember reading that the happiest people are single women and married men. At the time i just couldn't understand it. Now I'm long term married i do. And dh is a good one.

Of course they are.

Which is why I want to tear my hair out on dating threads on here when the majority of posters are telling the women to ‘communicate’ or to make allowances for some dusty man from Hinge that seems to have no solid redeeming features and they have spent 310 minutes with.

Women are socialised to be kind and forgiving, they make allowances and end up with mediocre blokes who don’t give a shit about them. Remember Mother’s Day last week and the heinous amount of men who gave zero fucks about their OHs to the extent where they couldn’t buy them a bunch of daffodils and get the kids to make a card?

@Suprima I don’t fit the narrative of kind and forgiving people don’t like it so you have to be prepared to be challenged. I can say no easily and it makes you an outlier.

I feel particularly amongst over 45s (and I’m now 60) there was far less house sharing- particularly outside of London and far more men went straight from mums to married/living together and then expected the partner/wife to pick up the household stuff as well as becoming a counsellor, lover and personal assistant and mum.- oh and work too!! No wonder so many women got burn out and become cynical. I also think women were socialised into just ‘laughing it off/putting up with it’ — Yes there are some really great guys too that fully muck in— but not enough of them to go round! I’m hoping younger guys may be a bit better after far more Uni/house sharing- but I’m not sure.

[quote CharSiu]@Suprima I don’t fit the narrative of kind and forgiving people don’t like it so you have to be prepared to be challenged. I can say no easily and it makes you an outlier.[/quote]
Me neither. I was in a serious relationship in my 20s with a man who was great at first, but I had no difficulty ending it and keeping it that way when he started treating me like shit, despite him begging me to take him back. Have been married to a good man for 30 years now.

I'm a recently separated man who currently feels the same way about women. Before the separation I thought I just needed a better woman, but now I'm experiencing the sheer joy of being alone, I'm beginning to think that not even sex is a good enough reason to ever live with someone again.

I don't think it's a man/woman thing, it's more a competent vs incompetent person thing. I'm almost completely self-sufficient. Being alone does not bother me, I prefer it most of the time. Another income in the house would make no difference. For me, living with someone else means doing more cleaning while living in a considerably dirtier and more disordered home. Even having a good cook cook for me wasn't in itself a net benefit, given the various downsides of accommodating the way they went about it. As for children, it used to be my worse nightmare to share a home with a small child. (I discovered there were upsides, and I like the one I have, but I've no plans to do it again.) The only thing in my life that's better with female assistance is sex.

This isn't a negative comment about women generally, my point is that it's difficult to give something to someone who doesn't need anything.

[quote CharSiu]@Suprima I don’t fit the narrative of kind and forgiving people don’t like it so you have to be prepared to be challenged. I can say no easily and it makes you an outlier.[/quote]
They really don’t. Particularly other women who act like there is a penis shortage when a man is acting the ok side of mediocre.

Suggesting you like a man to arrange a nice date which isn’t a walk or a shit pub near his flat (so he can attempt to get you back there) is akin to demanding to be picked up in a Bentley and having all duck and waffle booked out for the pair of you. I’ve lost track of how much I have been called ‘princess’ and ‘gold digger’ for suggesting that I don’t want to be taken for a towpath walk on a first date

If a man can’t book a restaurant or a exhibit or whatever when he is in throes of trying to impress you- guess what, it’s all downhill from there!!

Women give so much. They make life truly beautiful. That feminine energy is only worth spending on a man who shows you the same consideration and respect.

Can’t relate Dh is amazing. I thought he was just normal but as I go through life I realise he is not and is actually quite unusual. He really sees women as full people and has genuine female friends from university etc who all adore him. It hasn’t helped him at work though - he is not “one of the lads” and will speak up. He is quite cynical about other men.

I don’t fit the narrative of kind and forgiving people don’t like it so you have to be prepared to be challenged. I can say no easily and it makes you an outlier.

same. The trick, for me anyway, has been not to give a flying fuck what people think and we just get on with our lives. I learned this from my parents who were fantastic at doing the things they did best (so mum cooking, dad baking, mum fixing bikes, dad fixing cars) but the chores (in the literal sense, as in the things they didn't enjoy but had to be done) were divided between them, and me and siblings as we got older.

If anyone ever mentioned to me that i was mean for going on a trip without offspring who were staying with their other parent was usually a raised eyebrow, or that look you can do over your glasses. No words needed. When i read some of the posts here i could scream - so many women putting themselves last, martyring themselves sometimes, for no reason than it's expected.

My feminism doesn't allow this for me or my family.