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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think relationships a bit of a raw deal for women?

106 replies

CrushEmAll · 06/04/2022 09:23

I know there are women who are extremely happy in their relationships, but I believe that’s probably the minority. The vast majority of divorces are filed by women. And of those that remain married, many appear to stay for financial reasons, for the kids etc. I’m not here to bash men (I have sons of my own), but many of them just do not seem to have the emotional intelligence and communication skills (amongst other things), that are required to make a relationship healthy and successful. A few women I know who are past their child bearing years and are still single, seem to have high self esteem and confidence, are financially secure and independent and will not settle. It seems for these women, men have very little to offer them therefore they continue to be single until they find someone who is able to genuinely enhance their lives. And I wonder if it’s a very very small percentage of men who truly will be able to enhance their lives?

OP posts:
PaddleAlongRiver · 06/04/2022 12:05

I hate my husband. I thought he was one of the good ones for 7 whole years, adored him. But what I'd hate more is having to send my children away EOW, or even 50%(I know everyone does on MN, altgough I do not know anyone who does IRL).
His health isn't that great, if he snuffs it I would have no interest in another relationship, I'd be quite happy being single if I didn't have to share custody of the children.

Cameleongirl · 06/04/2022 12:11

@MsTSwift

Can’t relate Dh is amazing. I thought he was just normal but as I go through life I realise he is not and is actually quite unusual. He really sees women as full people and has genuine female friends from university etc who all adore him. It hasn’t helped him at work though - he is not “one of the lads” and will speak up. He is quite cynical about other men.
Same with my DH, @MsTSwift. I didn't realize that he was one of the best ones until we'd been together for quite a while! I have several friends with great DH's though, kind and supportive men who want the best for their wives and their children (if they have them).

But I know there are plenty of shits out there as well.

JanisMoplin · 06/04/2022 12:14

@AHungryCaterpillar

I only ever see this on MN. In real life, all the women I know are happily travelling alone without their husbands in remote countries, going for stuff without husbands or alone, sitting in cafes alone, eating at restaurants alone... I do all of these things. And some with DH.

Who knows if they are genuinely happy though? People only post online where they are anonymous and no one will know how they really feel and perhaps put a brave face on for the rest of the world?? People won’t want to be seen as weak and reliant on someone. I’ve seen many posts on here from women saying they simply don’t know how they will cope whilst their DH is away for a business trip, how will they “possibly manage 2 children alone” how will they manage bed time, how will they get house work and shopping done, god knows what they think single mothers do. So I do think a lot of women are heavily reliant on their partners so I’m not convinced that relationships don’t benefit women.

Not sure I have understood yr post correctly but I think MN has more than its fair share of women who can't do anything alone. I am not talking about single parenting mind you, which is very hard. I am talking about so many posters who apparently can't even go to Costa's alone. In the real world I see plenty of women alone at Costa's.
PaddleAlongRiver · 06/04/2022 12:16

@Cameleongirl I wouldn't assume your friends DHs are great.
Mine is on the surface, I tell everyone he is.
Unless you've lived with them for 10+ years then I don't think you can really tell.

Villagewaspbyke · 06/04/2022 12:18

I think we expect more of women generally and that means we also expect more of them on a relationship. So they end up doing a lot more of the domestic work and parenting even if they work full time too.

That said, many people (especially on mn) expect men to contribute more financially to a relationship or family. Just look at the different attitudes to men who don’t work v women on mn. I don’t think we should have different attitudes abs I think I don’t but I recognize that many people do.

Princetopple · 06/04/2022 12:24

I think I agree with this to a large extent. My husband is an absolute gem. I met him at eighteen and he was one of the only lads I met who wasn't a bit... letchy or blokey in some way. In fact, I approached him in front of all his friends and introduced myself because I got such a good feeling from him.

Years down the line we are married and he does all of the cleaning and food shopping. He works part time around the children so that we don't need to pay for childcare and I work full time. He sorts most of our life admin type stuff out and is the general organiser of our family life. He completely gets my feminist opinions and is supportive and encouraging.

He is not the greatest communicator and obviously has flaws like everybody, but he is the only partner I've ever had who will actually take on board things I say and apologise and make the effort to change. I just went round in circles with everybody else.

Honestly, he doesn't know how rare he is. I know for a fact that he brings absolutely loads to my life and I would be lost without him. I don't even think I'd bother trying to find somebody else if something were to happen to him. How common is a down to earth, working class man who takes on the majority of housework & childcare and agrees with my feminist opinions? I honestly feel that simply finding another man my age who doesn't watch porn would be almost impossible. All of my previous partners were just shit in comparison. Why was I even bothering? And he's good in bed Grin

EmeraldShamrock1 · 06/04/2022 12:25

I think men get the better deal.

It doesn't mean there aren't benefits to a loving relationship, my OH leaves the mental load for me however he has lots of good qualities, the DC adore him and see him as the fun parent, he'll play with them for hours.

His good points out way the bad, there is always room for improvement. 😉

Cameleongirl · 06/04/2022 12:26

[quote PaddleAlongRiver]@Cameleongirl I wouldn't assume your friends DHs are great.
Mine is on the surface, I tell everyone he is.
Unless you've lived with them for 10+ years then I don't think you can really tell.[/quote]
You're right, I can't really know for sure. But we're all in 20+ year relationships and the women are financially independent with teenaged/young adult children so I'm assuming they're sticking around because they want to, IYSWIM.

5128gap · 06/04/2022 12:27

I think I have a very good deal from mine. But I think that's because I'm in the fortunate position of being able to set the parameters that suit me. I'm independent financially and socially, no responsibilities, and was managing my life perfectly well on my own before getting into it, so knew from the start that I didn't 'need' it. Its the icing, but not the cake if you like, and should it start to take more than it offers, I can move on.
This hasn't always been the case. When I was younger with dependents, fewer resources, fewer options, and in need of greater support, I did make compromises that meant I gave more than I received, but needed what I did get too much to do anything else, or at least believed I did.

JanisMoplin · 06/04/2022 12:27

@Princetopple

I think I agree with this to a large extent. My husband is an absolute gem. I met him at eighteen and he was one of the only lads I met who wasn't a bit... letchy or blokey in some way. In fact, I approached him in front of all his friends and introduced myself because I got such a good feeling from him.

Years down the line we are married and he does all of the cleaning and food shopping. He works part time around the children so that we don't need to pay for childcare and I work full time. He sorts most of our life admin type stuff out and is the general organiser of our family life. He completely gets my feminist opinions and is supportive and encouraging.

He is not the greatest communicator and obviously has flaws like everybody, but he is the only partner I've ever had who will actually take on board things I say and apologise and make the effort to change. I just went round in circles with everybody else.

Honestly, he doesn't know how rare he is. I know for a fact that he brings absolutely loads to my life and I would be lost without him. I don't even think I'd bother trying to find somebody else if something were to happen to him. How common is a down to earth, working class man who takes on the majority of housework & childcare and agrees with my feminist opinions? I honestly feel that simply finding another man my age who doesn't watch porn would be almost impossible. All of my previous partners were just shit in comparison. Why was I even bothering? And he's good in bed Grin

Do you lend him out? :)
Flatbrokefornow · 06/04/2022 12:29

I agree. I think women are conditioned from a birth to take responsibility for other people’s emotions, and men are conditioned to expect those emotions and be literally taken care of by the women in their life. Women are conditioned to do all the emotional labour and take on all the mental load in a household, and there are enormous social consequences if they don’t and massive relationship consequences if they stop doing it later on in a relationship. They are also paid less in the workplace, which perpetuates this inequality, as they are often the ones to reduce hours or give up work entirely, which further impacts their ability to earn. Most middle aged mums are just fucking exhausted, in my experience. Mothers are expected to work like fathers, but fathers are not expected to parent like mothers, so why (objectively) would any woman keep supporting a freeloading man in this emotional, practical and increasingly financial way? Middle class women don’t really need men in families any more. They might like them, love them and enjoy having them around (or they might not) but they increasingly don’t need them. SPF are going to become the norm if men don’t grow into valuable partners, because women no longer have to put up with a man being an additional burden on a family for the pay packet. If they want an actual partner, or it’s easier to support a family without a man in it, they have options these days.

Partly this is because they are able to earn more and don’t necessarily need a partners income to raise a family. Partly it’s because divorce is more accessible and division of assets and income is beginning to reflect all the invisible work and sacrifice that women often make for their families. Partly its because single mothers are breaking out of the ghastly social stigma that the patriarchy has built to keep them down and persuade society that a partnership is necessary to perpetuate the species, which has been keeping them pretty comfy for a loooong time. Partly it’s because of the welfare state (which might go some way to explain why the likes of Bozo are so against it. They badly need women to continue their precious lineage, but fear that a more matriarchal society would undermine their Old White Male supremacy. Which if course it quite rightly would. Bozo particularly has a personal interest in demonising single mothers. He’s an absent father how many times over?!) Understandably, many men object to no longer having their comfort and pleasure being put before women’s, well, anything, which also places a lot of strain on a relationship, particularly if women grow into themselves and stop putting up with this shit after they’ve married or had children.

Women’s ability to bear and raise children is the most limited natural human resource. It’s a great deal of anthropological power in a species. The patriarchy (particularly any of it that values its ‘bloodlines’ for want of a better term ie all the upper class!) at it’s heart, deeply and likely unconsciously fears this power and has been oppressing women for thousands of years in order try and control it. But they can’t take it, and they can’t do without it.

This is a observation on society, not individual men. I am single, for all of the reasons above, but I like plenty of individual men. It’s no more their fault they are part of the patriarchy than mine that I’m oppressed by it. We are all a product of sexist society and there’s no shame in admitting it. In fact, until we all do admit it, without shame or judgement, we can’t do a lot to change it. However, most men could do a hell of a lot more to change if they wanted to, and because it’s so comfortable for them, a lot of them don’t. And there is shame and blame to be attached individually there. I’m not holding your husband responsible for all the ills of the patriarchal society. But he can buy his own mother’s birthday card.

incognitoforthisone · 06/04/2022 12:31

Everything you've said is pretty much anecdotal. Your personal experience of the people you know isn't really evidence that relationships are a raw deal for women.

Women are more likely to talk to you than men are about their relationship woes, and people who are unhappy are more likely to talk about it than people who are doing fine.

PinkAndViolet · 06/04/2022 12:33

It's over rated.
What gets me us that women are told they cannot be truly happy without a man yet very few actually end up truly happy when in a relationship.

thecurtainsofdestiny · 06/04/2022 12:34

I don't know OP. I am married (30 years) and happy. We did talk through our values and what we each wanted before choosing to get married though - things like did we want children, values about finances etc. I think we both had some deal breakers which could have changed our decision if we couldn't agree.

Maybe there's an element of luck too. We have grown together and not apart in many ways. Not everyone experiences that.

PinkAndViolet · 06/04/2022 12:35

@Princetopple Does he have a brother?!

GalesThisMorning · 06/04/2022 12:39

We don't expect enough of men. I don't mean shit like roses and chocolates - I mean the basic ability to communicate, show respect, care, not be threatning or scary, think before acting, participate in the basics of self care and running a household, earn money, nurture children, be emotionally intelligent, have some self awareness and empathy... these are adult human traits, not female traits. We as a society let men off the hook far too easily when it comes to these things.

My husband can 'do' all of the things above, and enriches every aspect of my life. My first husband couldn;t, and life with him was miserable.

It needs to be the norm for me to be, well, normal! Not a little bit lacking or a little bit shit. Men need to expect this of themselves and other men too.

TedMullins · 06/04/2022 12:40

Totally agree. I have some mental health issues that contributed to me having poor boundaries and dating bastards in the past, but even then, I'd voice my opinion and make it known when I was unhappy. In fact I'd get so angry with the poor treatment from men that it would inevitably blow up into a huge argument and I'd be the one who got dumped.

Years of therapy later I realise I was gravitating to a type of person who would never give me what I wanted and deserved (often with their own unresolved issues, emotionally unavailable, all the classics) and took a completely new approach – if someone showed even a sniff of a red flag in the early days, they were straight in the bin. I have no interest in a relationship with someone who doesn't enhance my life. I'm not particularly interested in compromising. I know what I like and how I like to live, I prioritise myself, my dog, my friends and my downtime, and any relationship I have has to fit around that. Not that I want them to do all the compromising - I mean if our lifestyles happen to match up, then great, but I'm not changing or downplaying my needs or pretending to be someone I'm not.

I am genuinely happy and at peace being single, although I met someone a few months ago who does tick all these boxes. I don't know that I ever want to live with him though, I like my own space. I don't believe you can guarantee any relationship will be forever so I'm not interested in getting married, and I'm absolutely fine with the idea of being single again or single long term. I don't care what people think about me, I say no when I mean no, I enjoy being selfish and think it's an underrated trait especially in women. I definitely missed the bit of female socialisation that says I'm not meant to be like this! But on the whole, yes, present company excluded, my life is MUCH happier and calmer when I'm not dating or romantically involved with men. If that changes with the current bf I'll chuck him because I'm not interested in 'working' at relationships if they become difficult. If it becomes too hard to be enjoyable, I'm out.

JanisMoplin · 06/04/2022 12:42

@thecurtainsofdestiny

I don't know OP. I am married (30 years) and happy. We did talk through our values and what we each wanted before choosing to get married though - things like did we want children, values about finances etc. I think we both had some deal breakers which could have changed our decision if we couldn't agree.

Maybe there's an element of luck too. We have grown together and not apart in many ways. Not everyone experiences that.

So did we. But halfway along the way some terrible unforeseen things happened. Serious illnesses of DC, job loss, traumatic deaths.... There is a huge amount of luck.
5128gap · 06/04/2022 12:44

@PinkAndViolet

It's over rated. What gets me us that women are told they cannot be truly happy without a man yet very few actually end up truly happy when in a relationship.
Its lack of a viable alternative in some cases. A lot of the single women I know want to be in a relationship because they're lonely, and want a SO and companion, and it's the norm to get these things from an intimate relationship. If there were options for women to get these things from each other outside of a sexual relationship, I think it would be the preference of many.
PollyDarton1 · 06/04/2022 12:44

@GalesThisMorning

We don't expect enough of men. I don't mean shit like roses and chocolates - I mean the basic ability to communicate, show respect, care, not be threatning or scary, think before acting, participate in the basics of self care and running a household, earn money, nurture children, be emotionally intelligent, have some self awareness and empathy... these are adult human traits, not female traits. We as a society let men off the hook far too easily when it comes to these things.

My husband can 'do' all of the things above, and enriches every aspect of my life. My first husband couldn;t, and life with him was miserable.

It needs to be the norm for me to be, well, normal! Not a little bit lacking or a little bit shit. Men need to expect this of themselves and other men too.

I agree with this totally. The attributes aren't female specific, they should be adult specific. Unfortunately too many men fall short of this mark.

I had what on paper looked like a very good catch - financially responsible, invested dad who had a good job, did housework and friends.

But he was a critical, judging, harsh and intolerant person of both me and his children. In the streets he seemed brilliant, behind closed doors he was difficult, stroppy, didn't pull his weight with childcare or mental load and never respected me.

I'd had really good boyfriends before this and it took to be essentially emotionally abused before I realised how good they really were. Moving forwards, I'm ridiculously wary and picky about who I will date.

JanisMoplin · 06/04/2022 12:47

@AHungryCaterpillar

It’s single childfree women that are said to be happier, it’s not a bed of roses being a single mum and the key word is the single childfree women are happier, I see women in relationships and most of them are so reliant on their partners that I’m not sure I agree with this, like women who can’t cope being on their own whilst their husband is at work, women who can’t cope if their husband has to go away for the weekend.
I only ever see this on MN. In real life, all the women I know are happily travelling alone without their husbands in remote countries, going for stuff without husbands or alone, sitting in cafes alone, eating at restaurants alone... I do all of these things. And some with DH.
GalesThisMorning · 06/04/2022 12:52

@PollyDarton1 - I think being wary and picky is a healthy sign of how much you value yourself! Unfortunatley it's the bad experiences that seem to make us picky a lot of the time.

We should re-brand picky as switched on and discerning Wink

ExplodingElephants · 06/04/2022 12:54

Bollocks. I think you’re probably unhappy and are hoping to get validation from others to support your views.

JanisMoplin · 06/04/2022 12:58

Sorry I don't know why I double posted! Odd.

PollyDarton1 · 06/04/2022 13:15

[quote GalesThisMorning]@PollyDarton1 - I think being wary and picky is a healthy sign of how much you value yourself! Unfortunatley it's the bad experiences that seem to make us picky a lot of the time.

We should re-brand picky as switched on and discerning Wink[/quote]
I'll take that! My mum calls me fussy. I think after my last experience I wasn't fussy enough. Ex DPs new squeeze introduced her kids after 3 weeks, good luck to her!