To be finished with voting Tory

[Viviennemary]

I've voted Tory in the last couple of elections. Didn't like Corbyn and thought Keir Stammer was a bit feeble. But after that smug performance by Sunak I am totally not going to vote Tory for a very long time. We are now in a position not to be affected too much by recent rises. Not always been that way of course. I wonder if others are feeling the same. But the lack of any sort of help for less well off people makes me absolutely sick. And all decided by a multi millionaire.

@riotlady

Ffs, Labour voters don’t exactly make a good sale do we? “Come and join us, we’ll berate you for your previous choices for 7 pages, it’ll be great”

Why do you think its on anyone here to sell anything?

I'll be voting LibDem next time but only because they have the best chance of unseating the Tory where I am. I'd vote Labour if that were the case.

It's not my job to make people who are content to elect a cruel, incompetent and corrupt government back into office. Those voters are morally bankrupt in my view and will deserve everything coming to them in terms of living standards - but it's not my job to make idiots non-idiots.

On the other hand, it is Labour's job - and unlike me, they have more restraint and Starmer has been at pains to point out that his approach is not to tell people who voted Tory previously that they were wrong (though obviously they were IMO), but to persuade them.

@Xenia

Labour in an echo chamber of people with the same views does not listen to those with a different view point eg on the trans issue. I want English law left as it is as do the Tories. Labour wants to change it. That is one issue. For me trusting Labour with lowering taxes is something I will never do. They seem anti just about everything I want from free speech to a small state.

"Small state"

=

More people in poverty.

More people in precarious economy in an unregulated gig economy.

More people priced out of decent housing.

I have never argued that 'trans women are women but cis women are cis women'.

"If you're not trans then you're cis."

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4510989-Are-the-wife-and-children-really-fine?pg=15

"Trans women are women."

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4510989-Are-the-wife-and-children-really-fine?pg=16

You are choosing to demonise the people who consider this issue to be a voting point as not giving a shit about poverty or simply being "an idiot".

Yet you clearly do not give enough of a shit either to prioritise getting them back to Labour by accepting the validity of their concerns, even as you chastise them for not accepting the validity of your anti-woman logical absurdity. Like a PP said, 7 pages of criticism isn't a great marketing campaign. I'll never vote Tory, but I can see why you won't win more voters if "ignore this important issue the way I don't, or you're a hateful idiot" is your slogan.

Unfortunately, these issues are linked. Poverty affects anyone, but people whose situations are exacerbated by being single parents living with children, or having a lower income, are more likely to be women.

Your solution is to call people useful idiots who don't give a shit about poverty (even as many of them suffer it in the current crisis) if they are concerned enough about this for it to affect their vote. Do you want to bring female voters back to Labour, or do you want to dig your heels in over your doublethink and Newspeak?

Because it looks as though you think it's only other people who should have to make a compromise on this issue regarding COL and poverty and who otherwise might be selfish, uncaring and idiotic...

What I'm saying, in a nutshell, is that Labour could win back a lot of female voters if it declared that a woman is an adult human female, and will protect single sex spaces, provisions, rights and so on on that basis.

Do you think that would be a reasonable position to take, if it meant winning enough votes to overthrow this current bunch of vampires and vultures?

@DrSbaitso

I have never argued that 'trans women are women but cis women are cis women'.

"If you're not trans then you're cis."

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4510989-Are-the-wife-and-children-really-fine?pg=15

"Trans women are women."

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4510989-Are-the-wife-and-children-really-fine?pg=16

You are choosing to demonise the people who consider this issue to be a voting point as not giving a shit about poverty or simply being "an idiot".

Yet you clearly do not give enough of a shit either to prioritise getting them back to Labour by accepting the validity of their concerns, even as you chastise them for not accepting the validity of your anti-woman logical absurdity. Like a PP said, 7 pages of criticism isn't a great marketing campaign. I'll never vote Tory, but I can see why you won't win more voters if "ignore this important issue the way I don't, or you're a hateful idiot" is your slogan.

Unfortunately, these issues are linked. Poverty affects anyone, but people whose situations are exacerbated by being single parents living with children, or having a lower income, are more likely to be women.

Your solution is to call people useful idiots who don't give a shit about poverty (even as many of them suffer it in the current crisis) if they are concerned enough about this for it to affect their vote. Do you want to bring female voters back to Labour, or do you want to dig your heels in over your doublethink and Newspeak?

Because it looks as though you think it's only other people who should have to make a compromise on this issue regarding COL and poverty and who otherwise might be selfish, uncaring and idiotic...

As to a previous poster, it's not my job to persuade anyone.

If you want someone to validate you and wrap you in cotton wool about your 'legitimate' concerns then go find a politician.

I'm just someone with views and I'm expressing them. Anyone voting Tory after the last twelve years needs their head wobbling (unless they're the very wealthy benefitting from Tory Government, in which case they need their morals wobbling). That is doubly the case after the last three years.

-Democracy suspended by unlawfully proroguing parliament.

-Violence back in a part of the UK that experienced a civil war during the lifetime of most people on here.

-2.5 million people using food banks.

-Housing massively unaffordable and home ownership out of reach for many more than previously.

It's not my job to convince people that these are bad things. And far worse things than a trans woman being in the women's toilet. If anyone things those are not bad things, or are outweighed by how awful it would be to treat trans people with dignity and respect and inclusion, then those people are beyond any persuasion I can offer.

But I can and will offer plenty of condemnation. And repeat my view that they have brought on whatever hardship they will suffer through Tory misrule themselves. Unfortunately of course the rest of us will have to live with the consequences of their warped values.

The fact that people are just waking up to the state of the country after 12 years of Tory rule makes me weep. You are the people that enabled them to create this mess!

@DrSbaitso

What I'm saying, in a nutshell, is that Labour could win back a lot of female voters if it declared that a woman is an adult human female, and will protect single sex spaces, provisions, rights and so on on that basis.

Do you think that would be a reasonable position to take, if it meant winning enough votes to overthrow this current bunch of vampires and vultures?

No.

Because (1) no one has provided any evidence that Labour would win significant numbers of votes by adopting a different stance; and (2) what you actually describe is Labour's position - they have said they would keep the Equality Act Single Sex Exemption.

@DrSbaitso

What I'm saying, in a nutshell, is that Labour could win back a lot of female voters if it declared that a woman is an adult human female, and will protect single sex spaces, provisions, rights and so on on that basis.

Do you think that would be a reasonable position to take, if it meant winning enough votes to overthrow this current bunch of vampires and vultures?

They would and god I wish they would. Because people are happy to vote in tory again if it means not Labour and yet, tories are no better. None of the parties seem to care about women anymore, even the ones led by women! It's insane these days.

Ill be voting Labour though I think, or lib dem. It doesn't matter really, snp will win regardless, but I can't vote for them or tory so short of spoiling my vote it's all I've got.

Imagine hating trans people so much that you're ready to ruin your own life over it.

No.

Thought not.

Because (1) no one has provided any evidence that Labour would win significant numbers of votes by adopting a different stance

Well, the question is hypothetical, hence the "if". (It is clearly a hot button issue, so why exactly isn't anyone carrying out research to get an idea of what the population overall thinks?) And the fact that you're on here trying to persuade people to overlook it when they vote suggests that you do think it's significant.

and (2) what you actually describe is Labour's position - they have said they would keep the Equality Act Single Sex Exemption.

Then why are they being so wishy washy about it in the public discourse?

I'm trying to establish if you would make the same compromise/sacrifice you're berating other people for not making. It seems not. And that's entirely your choice. But surely if it's a sticking point for you, you can see why it's a sticking point for others?

As for the swipe about anyone wanting to be "validated", that's frigging hilarious given the context...

I voted Tory right up until the last election. I cannot even explain why, I never really investigated it for myself but I was sort of raised to believe that Conservative = work hard to better yourself and your position whereas Labour = expect free handouts. I feel sick to think that I voted based on this notion for so long.
The scales have now fallen from my eyes. There is no reward for working hard for a large proportion of people in today's Britain. It's not something I feel I can tell my son. In so many cases both adults in a household work hard and can only just manage to make ends meet. With the cost of living increasing (under the Tories) many hard working people will be left in the gutter.
I couldn't bring myself to vote at all at the last election, but next time I intend to do my research and vote for the party that most aligns with my beliefs now.

Is this another thread on voting intentions which is going to be forced into focus on self ID?

@QuirkyTurtle

Imagine hating trans people so much that you're ready to ruin your own life over it.

Flip side: imagine not caring about women so much that you're prepared to lose again to the fucking Tories over it...

@PancakePenelope

I voted Tory right up until the last election. I cannot even explain why, I never really investigated it for myself but I was sort of raised to believe that Conservative = work hard to better yourself and your position whereas Labour = expect free handouts. I feel sick to think that I voted based on this notion for so long. The scales have now fallen from my eyes. There is no reward for working hard for a large proportion of people in today's Britain. It's not something I feel I can tell my son. In so many cases both adults in a household work hard and can only just manage to make ends meet. With the cost of living increasing (under the Tories) many hard working people will be left in the gutter. I couldn't bring myself to vote at all at the last election, but next time I intend to do my research and vote for the party that most aligns with my beliefs now.

It takes guts to post that. Well said.

@ilovesooty

Is this another thread on voting intentions which is going to be forced into focus on self ID?

I'm sorry, truly.

But they ARE connected issues. It's a hot button topic and many people have indicated that it will affect their vote. Labour supporters will need a better strategy than "you're a transphobic idiot" if they want to swing this. Even if they're right in saying it, it doesn't win people over.

Flip side: imagine not caring about women so much that you're prepared to lose again to the fucking Tories over it...

I'm not sure I understand what you mean by this.

Thank you @DrSbaitso

That's a polite response and I see your point. I just think it's a shame that every thread on voting intentions goes this way.

@ilovesooty

Thank you *@DrSbaitso*

That's a polite response and I see your point. I just think it's a shame that every thread on voting intentions goes this way.

It's going to be a hard choice when looking at issues though, isn't it?

Which ones do you abandon?

There is simply no evidence that Labour would be in a significantly better position if they were adopting an approach that would (putting it politely, find favour with gender crits).

They are polling on average around 39%.

That is considerably better than their vote shares in general elections in 2019, 2015, 2010 and 2005. It is only slightly behind their vote share in 2017 and 2001. And only 4% behind their absolute stonking landslide in 1997.

The point being that Labour's polling numbers are hovering around the vote share they normally get when they're doing pretty well, and only a couple of points behind where they have been when winning a massive majority.

There is no evidence that their polling would improve significantly if they adopted a more gender critical approach (as well as being the morally repugnant course of action).

Regardless of leader the focus was always wrong with tories. Now the middle classes who voted Tory are no longer being helped by the tories you finally see. Tories are and always have been scum. Honestly, Shame on everyone who voted for them.

Well, if it's not an issue that affects their votes, they can do what they like and you don't have to tell Mumsnet users what to do about it. It's completely insignificant and irrelevant to the discourse.

Why vote Tory at all?
Not liking Jeremy Corbyn isnt a reason to favour the Tories or think they are worthy of your vote in any way at all.
Hopelessly naive to suddenly be realising voting Tory isnt a good idea.

They were awful when you voted for them the last two times OP.

The narrative about 'Corbyn would have been worse' is getting so old, to the point that actually I don't think he would have been.

I just can't be a single issue voter so whilst I'm worried about the interplay for sex-based rights and trans rights that won't be the decider for me. Tories do more harm to women and families with their austerity and populism politics that labour do by being ambiguous on the trans issue.

@DrSbaitso

What I'm saying, in a nutshell, is that Labour could win back a lot of female voters if it declared that a woman is an adult human female, and will protect single sex spaces, provisions, rights and so on on that basis.

Do you think that would be a reasonable position to take, if it meant winning enough votes to overthrow this current bunch of vampires and vultures?

I don't think most women vote on that basis, or that this issue would win back many female voters.

In my observation the things that put off potential Labour voters are (1) a perception that Labour aren't sufficiently interested in ordinary people's 'bread and butter' issues; (2) a perception that Labour are economically incompetent and caused the 2008 banking crisis by their overspending (even though it was a global crisis); (3) immigration - unfortunately there are lots of older people especially, who are fairly left-leaning economically, but strongly anti-immigrant; and (4) the idea that Boris is a 'character', Corbyn undesirable and Starmer boring,

For a lot of issues, it's less about them being vote winners and more about them being vote losers.