DS (5) ASD eating items before we have paid for them

[Mouk]

I live near a small supermarket. For the past 7 years. It is 2 minute walk away and we have always encountered polite employees in this supermarket. I'm actually close pals with one of them. We'll call her Susan. The manager, we'll call Tom and the employee who spoke to me today, we'll call him Dave.

My son (5) enjoys accompanying me to the shop and his little routine is that he picks up a Fruit Shoot (takes the lid off) and sips on it, we then go to the ice cream freezer and he selects one, I remove the wrapper and hand the ice to him. I then place the wrapper in my basket and we continue on around the shop. When we get to the till I place all the items on the counter and pay. The cashiers always smile and offer to place the wrapper in the bin behind the tills. We have done this for at least 2 years. The staff are always friendly to my son and myself and my daughter (8) too.

Today we went over to the shop for a few items. As usual my son got his fruit shoot and his ice cream, I kept a hold of the empties and duly paid for all my items at the till (as I always do). I have never stolen anything in my whole life and don't have a criminal record. Go me! At the ripe old age of 45 I'm not gonna start now. At the till, the gentleman serving me remarked that my 2 litre container of milk was leaking. After paying he said I could go back down to the milk fridge and select a different one. I did so.

As I was selecting the milk, employee Dave approached me and said "Just to let you know, you can't do that anymore - you cannot eat items before paying for them" He of course was referencing my non verbal son but talking to me. I said "I'm sorry, I didn't know that". I then said that my son was autistic and it was his routine. Dave said "that doesn't matter, you still can't be doing that". I then said "he's 5, it's not hurting anyone". Dave said "it's what the big boss man has said". I said ok, and we left the store with the items we had paid for. I went bright red and actually felt like a criminal. When I think back, when we walked in Tom looked over at us and made eye contact with me - perhaps I'm being paranoid in hindsight.

I rang Susan afterwards to get her opinion. She is astonished that I was treated that way. She said I'm one of the long time regulars and if they had a problem with this, then why didnt they say something before now. I asked her if this was a rule. There is a secondary school 4 minutes walk away and they do not allow the teens to eat what they have purchased inside the shop as they have to limit the numbers at lunchtimes or the shop would be jam packed with students. They allow about 10 in at any one time. She said it's different with younger kids or so she thought.

I'll add that us shopping at this small supermarket has greatly helped my son with his social skills. He's learned road safety on our walk there. He knows we have to queue up to pay. He's able to walk around the shop with me without needing to hold my hand, he's no longer a flight risk, FGS he even knows how to social distance in a queue from our outings to this wonderful shop.

Susan has advised me to approach Tom politely on Monday when he's next there and ask to clarify a few things in a private area. Not in view of the general public. I wish I would have been awarded some privacy today when Dave spoke to me. Anyone could have overheard, I regularly bump into my neighbours at this shop.

1. Will it be ok for us to pay for the fruit shoot and ice cream, let my son eat and drink them while we shop, then I get to the till and purchase the rest of my items.

1. Will I always be looked at with suspision?

1. Is my son welcome in the shop. What is their policy on people with a disability. Hidden or otherwise.

YABU? (It's effectively stealing the item (i.e. eating it) before paying - son will just have to learn.
YANBU? He's 5 years old and is autistic. It's his little routine and we always pay. Manager needs to cop himself on.

My son was non verbal till he was 10. You’re doing him no favours at all going through life letting him do what he wants because he’s ‘autistic’. No. We choose the things, we pay for the things, we consume the things. That’s it. Make a story board.

Yabu. If my toddler is having a tantrum and I am already at the checkout I may pull something out of a multipack and will mention it to the cashier whilst they are scanning the items. That is as a last resort though and I am aware it isn’t ideal. You sound entitled saying that it’s “his routine” …

@username9871028

Yabu. If my toddler is having a tantrum and I am already at the checkout I may pull something out of a multipack and will mention it to the cashier whilst they are scanning the items. That is as a last resort though and I am aware it isn’t ideal. You sound entitled saying that it’s “his routine” …

You reward your toddler tantrum with some food?

I’ve worked for some large supermarkets and little shops and I’ve never once stopped a customer doing this or witnessed it happening. A bin behind each checkout often was filled with empty fruit shoots, banana peels, chocolate wrappers and sandwich boxes that customers put on the checkout conveyor and paid for before asking me to dispose of the wrapper in my bin. Having two children with ASD shopping can be a difficult and often traumatic ordeal for us as a family and anything I can do to help get my sons from store front to checkout without people thinking I’m skinning a cat is implemented. I was also told until you pass the last point of service it’s not classed as stealing so as long as you don’t walk past a checkout and not pay for the items or the wrappers then there’s not a lot can be done. Some people will have one view, some will have another but it’s down to the shop to be more upfront with signage stating items banisters be paid for before consuming them or items cannot be consumed on premises rather than s as sting it in peoples faces. It’s not been made clear before now and word of mouth isn’t sufficient when even your friend wasn’t aware of this policy. He needs to have it clearly pointed out to all customers not just sporadically telling customers on the shop floor it’s not very professional.

@Blimecory - sure I’ll take your reference to an article over the internet over my legal training.
S6 of the Theft Act relates to actions where there is no intention to permanently deprive but the actions still amount to a taking or disposal, e.g grapes or bananas sold by weight, or if you damaged the packaging such that it couldn’t be scanned or something.

Not that anyone should be trusting the advice of randoms on the internet in forums - but it isn’t theft.

The shop is entitled to have rules saying you can’t do it, but that’s separate to the question of whether it is theft.

@ididntevennotice no. usually he is already hungry whilst we are shopping, hence the tears.

[quote username9871028]@ididntevennotice no. usually he is already hungry whilst we are shopping, hence the tears. [/quote]

So step up, be a parent, ensure he isn't going to get hungry when shopping and stop rewarding a tantrum with food.

@OutlookStalking

I think YABVU. I would instead buy the 2 things he wants and then do your shopping.

Although this kind of thing has come up on mumsnet before I can't imagine thinking eating things before you had paid for them is okay! If it happened once with my kids I'd have been so apologetic. What if someone did htis then realised they'd forgotten their wallet or their phone died or card declined etc. Also its good to know we can't just take stuff in the supermarket and eat it but we have to pay for it.

Oh so stop being so uptight. No one’s going to die, for goodness sake. I did this with my own and do it with my DGC. Why on earth would anyone care precisely WHEN in the process you pay for a few of the items? It’s pence, usually, I’m not hoisting a flat screen telly out the shop, blithely declaring I’ll pay for it later. And if in the very unlikely event i found myself without means to pay, I’d pop back with the £1.25 later in the day.

I worked in a supermarket over 10 years ago but I still remember the day a woman ate a chocolate bar walking round the shop and got caught walking out without paying for it. She got caught and claims to have forgotten about it (genuinely I think), but she still got banned from that supermarket.

I’m sure you don’t intend to forget, but you or your son could take sick walking round the shop. You could get an emergency phone call and have to leave. You could have forgotten your purse. Or get to the tills and realise the card machine is not working.

I think the supermarket have been very accommodating up to now, but I don’t think people should be able to eat or drink things in the supermarket before paying.

so long as you are planning to pay for something it isn’t theft to open things before you have paid for them

It is theft. If you think it isn't, there's a barrister on Youtube ("Black Belt Barrister") you need to email to tell him he doesn't understand the law.

The way he explained it, if you consume an item before it passes through the till, you are denying the shop the opportunity to refuse to sell it to you, you are taking away their right to control the disposal of their property.

Why don't you just take a fruit shoot and something else for him to have with you? Or buy them before you do your shop? I don't think it's a huge deal either way. It's not really a very healthy routine every time you go to the shops to have though - does he really have an icecream all through the winter?? - so maybe see it as a good time for a change even if it's tricky for a bit due to him having ASD.

I'd always take some bread sticks every where for mine with ASD to munch on. Why not take a fruitshoot or other drink and bread sticks with you if he will eat them perhaps.

I agree that it's probably best not to start a habit like this for a child. I always explained to my children about the point at which the transfer of ownership happens - when my money has been accepted the goods are ours. They're still interested in the concept. This week I took my 11 year old to a cafe, and she waited until the second the payment went through, asked 'do we own it now?', before starting.

Maybe that's a concept you could play with as a new habit/discussion point?

I'll add that several times when I was pregnant I could not wait to eat or drink. I had hyperemesis half the time and would have mini-faints from not eating at other points. I used to apologise at the till for the open chocolate milkshake bottle and fruit bag, but no one minded. It's not theft if you fully intend to pay every time, but it is a bit anti-social.

It's not theft if you fully intend to pay every time, but it is a bit anti-social.

It's more accurate to say that it is theft, but shops are unlikely to call the police, presumably because there's zero chance a large supermarket will want to exercise their legal right (that you've deprived them of) to refuse to sell you the item.

Well done OP.
You have taken comments onboard and have a number of sensible suggestions to ease the transition.

Can anyone tell me why those with children without additional needs done it necessary to constantly feed their children through all activities. No wonder we have so many fat kids when they can’t go half an hour without eating.

I'd play it as a 'now you are a big boy' thing and make a big deal of how big boys are allowed to take their drink and ice cream to the self serve tills and press the button/beep the card/put the coins in to pay for it all by themselves before they go shopping.

He's five so a good age to do this. Only big boys going to real school in September are allowed to do it. And he gets his own receipt like grown ups get. 😉

@TheWatersofMarch

I always did this when my kids were little - and occasionally do it myself if I'm really thirsty. Never been an issue except it messes up automated tills (an empty drink bottle doesn't register the same weight on the scanned side). I think you're right to speak quietly to the Manager - you're a regular and this is the routine they have co-operated in getting your son in to. You sound like a lovely Mum btw.

Yes I’d do this.

And I do the same myself. I don’t see any problem with it and I see other people doing the same, and have never seen anyone pulled up on it.

If they want you to buy him the stuff then give it to him then that’s there prerogative, they can say so, and you can do that going forward.

No one is being unreasonable.

@Getoff

so long as you are planning to pay for something it isn’t theft to open things before you have paid for them

It is theft. If you think it isn't, there's a barrister on Youtube ("Black Belt Barrister") you need to email to tell him he doesn't understand the law.

The way he explained it, if you consume an item before it passes through the till, you are denying the shop the opportunity to refuse to sell it to you, you are taking away their right to control the disposal of their property.

@Getoff

Sure, but most supermarkets don’t care, because you are going to buy it, being able to shop how you want means you will spend more money, and that’s what they want.

The OPs local is perfectly entitled to ask her not to, but it doesn’t alter the fact it’s common practice.

I suspect (might be wrong) it’s more accepted in wealthier areas, because neither the shoppers nor the shop are expecting any issues with payment.

What a dignified update OP. I’d imagine it won’t be easy… would going to a different supermarket for a couple of weeks help ‘break the habit’ as such?

Corner shop convenience stores are different from big supermarkets, and I think it is very hard for small shops with lots of school customers to be allowing people to eat before payment.

But you seem to be facing this in a positive way OP, good luck to you and your Ds.

I have no idea why the vote count is the way it is!!
The only time it's unreasonable to eat it is if it is something that needs to be weighed to pay for it. So, I wouldn't think he could eat a banana before paying for it, but have no issues at all with anything with a barcode that can be scanned.

Very kindly, you are massively over reacting.

Go and talk to Tom, explain that you have done it for 2 years and how lovely and helpful the shop has been for your non verbal autistic son.

If they say no, then they are really a bit over the top, but you will have to accept it. Many people do this is supermarkets etc and it is generally accepted, but technically not allowed.

I say you are over reacting, because in your post you talk about being embarrased, about being looked at with suspician, about how rude Dave was (he wasn't he politely told you that you can't do it in the future) etc.

By allowing him to do this he will think it's normal and permitted. What will happen when he is 16 and in shops on his own or with friends? People won't twig that he has special needs and will treat him as a shoplifter. He needs to learn early that nothing is yours until you have paid for it.

@parrotonthesofa

I find it incredibly irritating some posters saying well I have an asd child and he / she understands that we pay first. Well good for you but not all children with severe asd and or learning disabilities are able to comprehend this. Not saying that op's child cannot but just because your child can doesn't mean all asd children can.

You don't start a habit like that in the first place. Then it's not an issue.

Lots of people do this to shut their kids up so they can shop in peace. No disabilities at play. We all have a lazy parenting thing inside us and this is a common one.

It's still lazy parenting no matter how much shops let it go.

Just takes one card to be declined at the till and it goes from habit, to stealing. Blanket ban.

Don’t know how we managed to bring up kids years ago who could go shopping or to church without food as a bribe for a whole hour?
Just giving in for a quiet life does not teach self control and must be contributing to the obesity crisis. You are doing yourselves or children even those with issues no favours at all

@Getoff

It's not theft if you fully intend to pay every time, but it is a bit anti-social.

It's more accurate to say that it is theft, but shops are unlikely to call the police, presumably because there's zero chance a large supermarket will want to exercise their legal right (that you've deprived them of) to refuse to sell you the item.

nope, you are completely mistaken.theft means taking goods without intention of paying.