A PhD is a huge waste of time- aibu

[Bluffysummers]

I’d quantify this and say in the humanities.

I did one, worked hard to complete it, stress, time and money. I was totally duped into it, lecturers telling me how good I was and blowing smoke up my arse and implying I’d get a job at the end of it… in my subject there were 3 jobs nationwide when I graduated none full time…and god knows how many candidates.

I left academia and guess what, no one cares if you have a PhD, in fact I think it’s more of a hinderance than an asset. I spent 10 years in education and all it did was delay my industry and career experience, so basically hinder me.

Aibu to say If you’re thinking of doing a humanities PhD don’t.

Phd students need to be published and publish often to have any hope of ever getting an academic role. This is what a lot of phd students fall down on because of bad advice etc. What they often don’t realise is that their contemporaries who do get the job might have published their undergrad / msc thesis, might have co-signed papers during their phd etc.

@Bluffysummers

I’d thought about a pgce *@Siepie* but the thought of spending £9k more on tuition made me feel ill because I could have done it straight after my BA and I wasn’t that arsed about high school teaching.

I’d applied and got through to researchers in schools this seemed like a great fall back but then despite my subjects being the higher paid desirable one there were no spaces 2 years running… disaster

This is not necessarily a waste of the same , the starting teaching salary for a PhD graduate who has just completed a PGCE is much higher than the salary you would expect as a BA with a PGCE.

Last time I checked for PhDs + PGCE the starting salary was on the £40k region while for the BA/BSc + PGCE was in the mid £20ks.

I'm not a Phd student or graduate but I work as a hiring manager in a sector that attracts a lot of PhD candidates even though the jobs only require either A levels or a first degree.

I rarely shortlist them because of lack of work experience and often a cumbersome writing style. I've interviewed a couple and they all seem to lack confidence. I haven't hired any.

As a side note, I don't consider masters as a particular benefit either having worked alongside some lacklustre masters grads. The exception is if someone has gained a masters as a mature student or after a long gap in education. That takes gumption.

Hopefully you had fun while you were researching OP and had a good extended student lifestyle at least.

Yanbu, have met several people who regret doing one and no one who’s glad of it.

@Bluffysummers

Most people can expect to enter grad professions at an appropriate level, unless they messed up during their PhD. I really don't think it's all this bad

What do you mean @SarahAndQuack? I passed my PhD no corrections and I couldn’t get a job (outside of teaching) for love nor money. That d list grad scheme was the only one I could get at that time, paid the same as grads with UG degrees

I've not heard of this TBH. I've heard of people who took some time to get a good job, or who were very choosy about what they wanted to do, but I've never heard of anyone actually struggling to get a job roughly equivalent to a PhD level. I do know often that meant starting as if they were fresh out of a Masters, but they all progressed fast. I assume willingness to do that makes some difference? Not sure.

@Ozanj

Phd students need to be published and publish often to have any hope of ever getting an academic role. This is what a lot of phd students fall down on because of bad advice etc. What they often don’t realise is that their contemporaries who do get the job might have published their undergrad / msc thesis, might have co-signed papers during their phd etc.

Depends on the field, though. No one publishes undergrad arts theses, and you don't co-sign papers. The OP is in the Humanities, and it's quite possible s/he is in a discipline where publishing is more rigorous.

@SarahAndQuack I don’t get what you mean by willingness?

I’d have gladly taken a job that was equivalent to M level

Is this not through researchers in schools @TheBigDilemma?

I spoke to an education adviser I think at ucas, i actually can’t quite remember now and she said you may progress faster as a PhD but your starting salary was the same.

Not to be too outing I did an inset day at a high achieving school in my area and I was floored at the utter stupidity of the education curriculum in my subject, it actively made things harder for students and snr teachers teaching things wrong (my area broadly speaking was a language, so there is definitely a wrong way, ie words pronounced wrong, grammar rules taught incorrectly or wrong).

Could have done it for 40k not for 23

I really respect anyone with a PHD.
Shows me hard work

I couldn't vote as I dare say some of them are useful at times.

MoodlesofNoodles makes a good point above that in many countries, at least a Masters is required to work professionally. I know that my Masters gave me far, far more capability in my field. Although I'm not sure if a Phd would have done the same. But in the UK, university education is relatively short and its almost seen as a negative to be too well educated. This country is a bit of an outlier in that respect.

That causes phds to be less well respected and less in demand, not the phd itself.

Another almost unrelated point is that many people are now looking upon academic careers as a career for the independently wealthy, at least at some institutions. The salaries are so low (and often the cities themselves so expensive to live in), its so difficult to get tenure, the demands on your time if working full time are so high so often people work 0.7 or 0.8 or whatever.

My experience was that everyone managed to get a non-academic job quite quickly and usually then progressed quite fast, but that it wasn't uncommon to go in at the level of a new UG grad or not much above.

Also - and I don't mean this to be insulting, OP - presumably if your PhD institution had 'a PhD student every few years' it wasn't a research-intensive university? Was it a post-92? Because there are definitely employers who like the 'prestige' of having staff with PhDs, but that tends to go hand-in-hand with being snobby about institutions.

Agree this is true for many. I’ve been a hiring manager in private sector research orgs (to inform public policy). Candidates we employed with PHDs never worked out....they couldn’t hack the pace and pressure to distill info into real world recommendations.

The world has changed. Knowledge does not hold the currency it once did... emotional intelligence, problem solving skills etc are more valuable. Anyone can access knowledge at their fingertips. It’s rare a PHD level of knowledge is needed in a job outside academia. If I need specialist knowledge, I can hire people by the day from any university across the world - why employ them?

Anyone with a good education and intelligence can develop the research skills you learn doing a PHD, eg. lit review, qual and quant analysis.

That said, we do need some people to do PHDs and do the research, so they are valued for society.

To be honest OP, I think you should have researched your options better before starting a PhD.

A PhD on its own doesn’t take you any further than not having one if you don’t have lots of professional ambition and grit to go with it. Most people who end up in great jobs start preparing for those jobs by taking opportunities wisely when they are still studying.

Surely it depends on what you want it for and whether it's useful for work etc.

I'm an engineer and don't have one as it'd be a waste of time but work with lots of academics and professionals with PhDs, where one has been essential or beneficial.

But you could say similar about degrees. Mine was useful and interesting but I only use about 10% of it. Virtually everything I know was learnt on the job.

@HardbackWriter

My experience was that everyone managed to get a non-academic job quite quickly and usually then progressed quite fast, but that it wasn't uncommon to go in at the level of a new UG grad or not much above.

Also - and I don't mean this to be insulting, OP - presumably if your PhD institution had 'a PhD student every few years' it wasn't a research-intensive university? Was it a post-92? Because there are definitely employers who like the 'prestige' of having staff with PhDs, but that tends to go hand-in-hand with being snobby about institutions.

Nope institution was just super fussy about candidates, there’d be like 2 candidates on the go in the subject at the time. Redbrick and Russell group Uni, not oxbridge/ Durham or a london Uni but one of the others.

I say subject not department, in the department there’d be many more

@TheBigDilemma

To be honest OP, I think you should have researched your options better before starting a PhD.

A PhD on its own doesn’t take you any further than not having one if you don’t have lots of professional ambition and grit to go with it. Most people who end up in great jobs start preparing for those jobs by taking opportunities wisely when they are still studying.

Hindsight 20/20 but I was 23 and obviously deeply naive and flattered that all of these snr academics who’d got books and books under their belts were saying how interesting my research was and how I could be the one who makes it, I was also told that there’d be a stepping stone job at the end and got myself what I thought was a solid plan b in researchers in schools.

Ever heard of the parable of the man who built is house on the sand… geezer is me

Just to add to my post above, I’m not saying people with PHDs can’t hack pace/ pressure at all..,it’s just that a PP said private research / public policy would be an area which values PHDs, but it’s really not equivalent to academic research, so not substitute for a career in academia (which is why a lot of PhD graduates gravitate towards it, but often not a good fit).

What do you consider to be poorly paid? I am in academia. I took a huge pay cut coming from private practice, so I'm definitely on my less than I was (used to be on six figures) but I wouldn't say I'm earning peanuts. I guess it depends on the area you're in. I teach Law.

much less*

@XelaM

What do you consider to be poorly paid? I am in academia. I took a huge pay cut coming from private practice, so I'm definitely on my less than I was (used to be on six figures) but I wouldn't say I'm earning peanuts. I guess it depends on the area you're in. I teach Law.

Practices vary! Starting out salaries aren't great, hourly rates can be poor. I'm in law too and stopped doing a few extra hours per week because the hourly rate was quite low. As a reliable full time salary it can be quite reasonable if you have tenure but not when they mess you around for years before getting there.

@KitchenDancefloor

I'm not a Phd student or graduate but I work as a hiring manager in a sector that attracts a lot of PhD candidates even though the jobs only require either A levels or a first degree.

I rarely shortlist them because of lack of work experience and often a cumbersome writing style. I've interviewed a couple and they all seem to lack confidence. I haven't hired any.

As a side note, I don't consider masters as a particular benefit either having worked alongside some lacklustre masters grads. The exception is if someone has gained a masters as a mature student or after a long gap in education. That takes gumption.

Hopefully you had fun while you were researching OP and had a good extended student lifestyle at least.

Yes, this sums up my experience. It takes a lot of work to unpick an academic writing style and the commitment to detail when it is not required.

The lack of work experience, emotional intelligence and team behaviours have also been an issue.

I absolutely loved my PhD - humanities/languages. I embarked on it for pure love of the subject, and taught undergraduates throughout. I gained many transferable skills, obviously on the research side but more widely too. I had a fellowship option at the end but joined the Civil Service. Having a PhD was obviously not a requirement but it is respected for its academic rigour and my research skills, presentation skills and the resilience it gave me have all been very valuable. I really enjoy knowing that I contributed even a small amount of original research to the academic world!

We recruit in economics, maths and engineering - applications from phd candidates have always been rather odd, long winded, formal, interviewed a few never really worked out, they never get past the first interview.

One of my friend’s ds got an Humanities phd - he just joined the civil service with all the other grads, she told him - if your phd has given you a leg up - then go show them how good you are and be the first one who gets promotion. She has told him to basically forget he has it.

From a hiring perspective, I would avoid PhD candidates, particularly those that put a Dr in front of their name. I would assume they would expect a rate commensurate with their qualifications (it won't, mainly work experience counts) and be too theoretical or be above the nitty gritty of the role. I am probably being unfair.

If a PhD candidate wanted a job at entry level to gain experience, they might be better off not mentioning the PhD.

@blueshoes

From a hiring perspective, I would avoid PhD candidates, particularly those that put a Dr in front of their name. I would assume they would expect a rate commensurate with their qualifications (it won't, mainly work experience counts) and be too theoretical or be above the nitty gritty of the role. I am probably being unfair.

If a PhD candidate wanted a job at entry level to gain experience, they might be better off not mentioning the PhD.

Completely agree. I do keep challenging myself to check I’m not being unduly negative when I read an application. We occasionally work with academic specialists and it’s always a bit of a strain.