Dogs… To think it doesn’t matter whether it’s a legal breed or not?!

[MsWalterMitty]

Just read about the recent child death in St Helen’s. It’s so awful!

The breed of dog has been released and it turns out it’s not an illegal breed. It’s called an American Bully XL, never heard of it so I googled it, even though I had an idea what it might look like due to its name.

Surely, whether it’s legal or not, this dog seems like a really stupid choice for a family!

@catgirl1976

Labs and retrievers? I honestly don’t recall any incidents of them attacking children. Is that actually true?

A family member (child) was attacked pretty badly by their pet Lab.

@Eeksteek

It IS the breed. Labs and spaniels are bred to like being with people, to listen, to have weak mouths, to enjoy touch. Hundreds of generations of the survival of the soppiest! Fighting breeds were bred to react with aggression, to attack in a frenzy, to be wound up, to hold on with a crushing bite. If a lab snaps (generally out of fear and anxiety because it’s been poorly raised or it’s needs are not met) it snaps, and then runs away to safety, or can be pulled off. It will let go if hurt. It snaps in its own defence, because it doesn’t have hundreds of generations of being bred to strengthen its desire and ability to fight and attack. Fighting breeds have a much higher chance of reacting like this, and a much higher risk of causing terrible injuries if they do. It’s not their fault, and good training and a healthy environment can certainly produce good individual dogs. But that isn’t the same as saying they don’t a higher risk of killing or maiming as a breed.

Genes load the gun. The environment only pulls the trigger. Labs etc come with rubber bullets and safety catches. Fighting breeds are armour piercing rounds with hair triggers. The might not fire, but they kill if they do. All dogs can be dangerous, but big powerful, fighting dogs are the most dangerous, most often. Having one at all is quite a responsibility, but having one around a child is an unacceptable risk snd should absolutely have to consequences to stop other people taking the same risks. It’s what we do with any other child neglect, to deter other parents from making the same poor parenting decisions. The parents would face charges if the child had been accidentally killed or injured by any other weapon, because weapons shouldn’t be near children.

Great post. Completely agree.

One of my neighbours has a young intact male English bull terrier, we live very rurally surrounded by fields full of livestock (sheep, cattle, and horses including foals).

It was a very sweet and playful puppy, but is now fully grown, and I am not the only dog walker in my area who is very wary of it. I will certainly be turning the other way to avoid it when out with my dog and/or DD.

It is just not necessary to have these extremely powerful breads that have historically been bred to be dangerous, and certainly not to keep males intact past 6 months when it is possible to castrate them.

@LabelMaker

Googled it and one of the websites said it was ideal for families. Also I don't think it's at all helpful to anyone to call it a stupid choice. They are suffering so much right now.

They're suffering because they brought a huge dog they didn't know into their house with their baby.

Utterly reckless.

All breeders should have to be licensed and vetted. No dogs should be sold with the ability to be bred from.

It is worth remembering just how rare fatal dog attacks are. There are 12.5 million dogs in the UK (according to Google) and there have been roughly 3 fatal attacks per year in the last seven years. There are roughly 33 million men in the UK and there are 600 homicides per year, as roughly 92% of perpetrators are male, we can call that 550.

So the odds of a man killing are 550/33000000 = 0.00001666666

Odds of dog killing 3/12000000 = 0.00000024

Both tiny odds but the dogs odds are a whole two zeros more infinitesimal.

So on average a man is about 50 times more likely to kill someone than a dog is.

Not saying we should ban men btw but just trying to highlight how bad humans are at rational risk perception.

How many men kill children @FungalLurkins?

@Eeksteek

It IS the breed. Labs and spaniels are bred to like being with people, to listen, to have weak mouths, to enjoy touch. Hundreds of generations of the survival of the soppiest! Fighting breeds were bred to react with aggression, to attack in a frenzy, to be wound up, to hold on with a crushing bite. If a lab snaps (generally out of fear and anxiety because it’s been poorly raised or it’s needs are not met) it snaps, and then runs away to safety, or can be pulled off. It will let go if hurt. It snaps in its own defence, because it doesn’t have hundreds of generations of being bred to strengthen its desire and ability to fight and attack. Fighting breeds have a much higher chance of reacting like this, and a much higher risk of causing terrible injuries if they do. It’s not their fault, and good training and a healthy environment can certainly produce good individual dogs. But that isn’t the same as saying they don’t a higher risk of killing or maiming as a breed.

Genes load the gun. The environment only pulls the trigger. Labs etc come with rubber bullets and safety catches. Fighting breeds are armour piercing rounds with hair triggers. The might not fire, but they kill if they do. All dogs can be dangerous, but big powerful, fighting dogs are the most dangerous, most often. Having one at all is quite a responsibility, but having one around a child is an unacceptable risk snd should absolutely have to consequences to stop other people taking the same risks. It’s what we do with any other child neglect, to deter other parents from making the same poor parenting decisions. The parents would face charges if the child had been accidentally killed or injured by any other weapon, because weapons shouldn’t be near children.

Great post.

The popularity of these XL bullies (pitbull crosses) has gone insane and it clearly is presenting a problem. So those of you who can't bear the idea of bullbreeds being banned entirely, what's the answer? Because education clearly isn't working and let's face it, you can't educate pork anyway.

Bully types get bad press for stuff like this. How many people per year die from a dog attack? You can count them on one hand.
How many people go to A&E because they are bitten? Guess what breed ranks as the worst for dog bites? The Labrador.

Unfortunately we will see an increase in deaths or attacks from these dogs.

They're no longer the dog as described above on a chain with a rough owner.

The owners around here are young people who wear expensive clothes, drive fancy cars, take plenty of selfies, influencing with their ripped ears pouches. 🙄

Terriers grab on with their teeth and shake. It's their nature. My friend had a staff who you could swing round the room by her jaw holding onto a toy because she absolutely wouldn't let go. I can lift my dog (also a terrier) off the ground if he's grabbing onto something. He's a small dog but he has an enormously strong jaw.

A dog that size could kill a baby in seconds.

Men buy these dogs because they think it makes them look hard. I hope they're prosecuted for reckless endangerment. He won't have a good time inside.

@Eeksteek

It IS the breed. Labs and spaniels are bred to like being with people, to listen, to have weak mouths, to enjoy touch. Hundreds of generations of the survival of the soppiest! Fighting breeds were bred to react with aggression, to attack in a frenzy, to be wound up, to hold on with a crushing bite. If a lab snaps (generally out of fear and anxiety because it’s been poorly raised or it’s needs are not met) it snaps, and then runs away to safety, or can be pulled off. It will let go if hurt. It snaps in its own defence, because it doesn’t have hundreds of generations of being bred to strengthen its desire and ability to fight and attack. Fighting breeds have a much higher chance of reacting like this, and a much higher risk of causing terrible injuries if they do. It’s not their fault, and good training and a healthy environment can certainly produce good individual dogs. But that isn’t the same as saying they don’t a higher risk of killing or maiming as a breed.

Genes load the gun. The environment only pulls the trigger. Labs etc come with rubber bullets and safety catches. Fighting breeds are armour piercing rounds with hair triggers. The might not fire, but they kill if they do. All dogs can be dangerous, but big powerful, fighting dogs are the most dangerous, most often. Having one at all is quite a responsibility, but having one around a child is an unacceptable risk snd should absolutely have to consequences to stop other people taking the same risks. It’s what we do with any other child neglect, to deter other parents from making the same poor parenting decisions. The parents would face charges if the child had been accidentally killed or injured by any other weapon, because weapons shouldn’t be near children.

Excellent post.

It is worth remembering just how rare fatal dog attacks are.

I agree.

Your kid is more likely to die from a million other things than your pet dog - of course you should be sensible and not leave a dog and child alone or have it sleep in your bed etc but the chances of a dog killing a human is incredibly rare.
Cows are responsible for many more injuries and deaths.

A dog is an animal no matter how domesticated it is - they do not think or act like we do.
But let’s not forget that many, many more men and women purposely injure and kill children than dogs do and it’s not fair that posters are implying these parents are just as bad as those who intentionally hurt their children.

My friends baby was killed by his dad.
He had previously been violent towards their dog and we all know that being violent towards an animal shows they’ll be violent towards a child - so should she also be held responsible for the death of her baby even though she knew nothing of it and wasn’t even in the same town at the time but knew he’d previously kicked the dog?
I person would never let a man near my child if they’d hurt an animal as I know what that means but I’d never blame my friend for doing so as she loved her son and would never have intentionally put him in harms way.

YANBU, It was a stupid choice and their daughter paid a massive price. They will have to live with the consequences of such a poor decision now. These types of dogs are high risk at the best of times, never mind around young children.

I'm so sick of the labrador/spaniels are just as bad argument.

It's the closest breed to a pitbull that is legal, hence their popularity. They're the breed of choice for drug dealers and wannabe gangstas all over the country. And there are literally hundreds online for sale.

The parents should be charged with manslaughter. Instead they're arranging a crowd fund for a massive party and live music with a balloon release with a request for no drugs out of respect. FFS.

@XenoBitch

Bully types get bad press for stuff like this. How many people per year die from a dog attack? You can count them on one hand. How many people go to A&E because they are bitten? Guess what breed ranks as the worst for dog bites? The Labrador.

Well if you look at the wiki page, it's 7 people since January 2021. 3 of them were children.

Do you think 3 children a year being mauled to death by family pets is acceptable? Because I don't.

children and dogs should never be left unattended, no matter what the breed.

I work in ED and we see a lot of dog bites in children. Luckily I've never seen a child involved in a fatal attack but I don't agree that other bites are not significant. I've seen lots of bites to the face which will leave horrific scars for life and bites to hands and arms which will cause permanent disabilities. We always ask about details and of course people might lie (and probably often do). But lots of them are from much-loved family pets (often grandma's rather than their own) of all types of breed and often where an adult is reported to be in the room but wasn't able to intervene quickly enough. It's always "they've never done anything like this before" and, whilst some of the parents admit their toddler was pulling at the dog, sometimes they are much older children who say they were just sitting minding their own business and eating (for example).
I'm not dog averse. I wouldn't have one but my children have spent lots of time with family members who have labs and they adore them. I am always aware though that the risk is never zero...

@FungalLurkins

It is worth remembering just how rare fatal dog attacks are. There are 12.5 million dogs in the UK (according to Google) and there have been roughly 3 fatal attacks per year in the last seven years. There are roughly 33 million men in the UK and there are 600 homicides per year, as roughly 92% of perpetrators are male, we can call that 550.

So the odds of a man killing are 550/33000000 = 0.00001666666

Odds of dog killing 3/12000000 = 0.00000024

Both tiny odds but the dogs odds are a whole two zeros more infinitesimal.

So on average a man is about 50 times more likely to kill someone than a dog is.

Not saying we should ban men btw but just trying to highlight how bad humans are at rational risk perception.

People are inherently very poor at assessing risk (as we can see here)

I’m rubbish at maths, but I think it would be really instructive to see a similar calculation of the comparative odds of a retriever killing someone compared to a fighting breed. I wonder if figures are available?

So on average a man is about 50 times more likely to kill someone than a dog is.

Exactly!

Every single person on here who has ever left their child with a man - whether that’s their DH, brother or dad - has put their child at much greater risk than if they left their child with a dog, regardless of breed.

I disagree that it’s breed simply because it has the word bull in it as when I was growing up it was German Shepard’s, Rottweilers and Doberman’s.
Akita’s for example can do just as much damage as they’re just as strong but they’re not brought by twats as often as they’re not so much of a status dog so you don’t hear about them as much.

The issue is bigger than breed - it’s the fact that anyone can buy a dog and breed from it and sell it for £50 on gumtree. Look how many idiots brought puppies in lockdown.

We need stricter rules - ALL breeds of dogs should be neutered as law and if you want to breed you need to apply for a breeding license and sell the puppies responsibly.

I'll probably get a right bashing for this but I'd take a punt they'd be less children killed by dogs if dogs were banned entirely from social and council housing.

Wow!

These XL Bully / Pocket Bully / similar 'breeds' always attract complete morons who want the latest status dog.

Had a run in with one in the park earlier today. Young dog with ears [illegally] cropped and a moronic owner. This dog started approaching mine and the owner (sounding slightly worried) tried calling his dog back and completely failed. Worried that his dog was going to start a scrap with mine, I started walking away and asked my dog to follow me, which he did.

The bully kept following us and ignoring the owner. I asked him to put his dog on a lead if it isn't trained. Next thing I know I'm being told that "it's your fucking fault my dog won't come back, because you keep walking away" and "my dog is only 8 months old"

We met an absolutely lovely staffy later on the same walk, with a delightful manner. I've nothing against bull breeds in general, but these XL / Pocket / Extreme / Micro Bullies always seem to attract utter morons as their owners who want a tough looking dog. Extra moron points if it has cropped ears (except rescues, obviously).

However, the DDA1992 is a really poorly drafted piece of legislation and banning specific breeds has done very little to address the issues that exist.

@XenoBitch

Bully types get bad press for stuff like this. How many people per year die from a dog attack? You can count them on one hand. How many people go to A&E because they are bitten? Guess what breed ranks as the worst for dog bites? The Labrador.

Bites, yes. Deaths? Not so much. Any dog will bite in defence if it feels threatened. They have sharp teeth and a nip is normal body language for dogs (just watch a mum discipline her puppies!) It’s regrettably common because dogs can’t talk and many, many people can’t read canine body language very well. But it generally won’t actually try to kill you, and rarely does. When we are talking about bad or fatal injuries, it’s most often (not exclusively) fighting breeds. They are weapons. I do think they should be illegal, but at the very least they should be subject to the same controls as other lethal weapons with licences to own and proof of competence in keeping them safety and appropriately (ie nowhere near kids!! At least it would be easier to police. You can’t conceal a pitbull under your shirttails!)

I’m a friend of close friends of the parents, and it is truly devastating.

However, we do seem to have a lot of mutual friends in the area that have Staffy and Bully XL breeds who, from what I see on social media, are great family dogs that spend a lot of time with children. I have no doubt a huge amount of training has gone into this, but moving in similar circles I can see how they may have been naive to the danger.

I know it doesn’t help the position, but the baby and her brother were doted on by the parents, and in my view it really is a tragedy borne out of sheer naivety.