Dogs… To think it doesn’t matter whether it’s a legal breed or not?!

[MsWalterMitty]

Just read about the recent child death in St Helen’s. It’s so awful!

The breed of dog has been released and it turns out it’s not an illegal breed. It’s called an American Bully XL, never heard of it so I googled it, even though I had an idea what it might look like due to its name.

Surely, whether it’s legal or not, this dog seems like a really stupid choice for a family!

Yes there’s a handful of dogs that come up ‘time and time again’ as a PP said but that’s because they’re the current ‘cool’ dog.

They're all dogs bred for power with particularly strong jaws. Cockerpoos and labradoodles are the popular dogs round here- not many of those on the list.

I've no idea why people seem so set on denying things which are obviously true. No one is blaming the dogs.

@Singlebutmarried

My experience with the American bill breeds is the complete opposite. We’ve had two (second one still with us) and they are/we’re just very loving (yes strong) but soppy dogs.

However, we do not leave any of our dogs (terrier included) alone with the child.

Dogs are animals, and any animal could turn.

These breeds do have such a strong bite on them though and the damage that can be caused is truly awful.

People should be vetted before being allowed a dog of any shape or size.

It doesn’t matter about leaving them alone… can you hand in heart say that you would be able to pull your angry dog off your child if it attacked it whilst in the same room as you? It only takes a split second

@WonderfulYou

I hope they’re done for manslaughter

If your dog killed someone do you think you should be done for manslaughter?

Yes!

@catgirl1976 - I was thinking that it's always pitbull/staffie types all the time. Of course they can be lovely and soppy.

But they're also incredibly strong animals with very powerful jaws - putting them near small, high pitched, unpredictable humans is a recipe for them to react to them like they are prey.

As for the family, I'm mostly angry with whoever gave/sold them the dog, the family have suffered enough and don't need more censure than I am sure they are giving themselves now.

Not a child but my mum saw 2 Labrador's attack and kill a King Charles cavalier.
A retriever also attacked my dog in the park, it was completely unprovoked.

I have a rescue who I've had for 5.5 years, my kids were 12 and 10 when I got him and I wouldn't leave him alone with them for a while so that I could trust him. In fairness to him he's never put a foot wrong but I would never leave him alone with a baby.

It's not just bad owners though. It's a combination of bad owners and powerful dogs. You are always going to get bad owners. But a bad owner with a chihuahua is a lot less of a menace than a bad owner with a bulldog.

Enough of this bleating about "don't blame the dogs" like dogs are going to be mortally offended by hearing people saying they're dangerous. Dogs don't understand the concept of blame and it's not about blame anyway but about public safety. Having proper public messaging about the damage your desire for a certain type of dog can do to yourself, your loved ones and the general public is not about being nasty to poor ickle doggies but about trying to embed socially responsible behaviour.

@LaurieFairyCake

They'd had him a week and I think bought the dog off the internet

So not even raised in their family.

There are pages of the breed on Gumtree, anything up to £6000!

I dont like this thread at all. I’m not saying it’s wrong to discuss the perils of having a dog in the same house as a child, but the vitriol to these bereaved parents is not acceptable.

They have made a mistake, a bad one. I don’t agree with dogs and children mixing and I’m not defending their choice to get this dog. But their toddler has just died. Show some compassion FFS.

It IS the breed. Labs and spaniels are bred to like being with people, to listen, to have weak mouths, to enjoy touch. Hundreds of generations of the survival of the soppiest! Fighting breeds were bred to react with aggression, to attack in a frenzy, to be wound up, to hold on with a crushing bite. If a lab snaps (generally out of fear and anxiety because it’s been poorly raised or it’s needs are not met) it snaps, and then runs away to safety, or can be pulled off. It will let go if hurt. It snaps in its own defence, because it doesn’t have hundreds of generations of being bred to strengthen its desire and ability to fight and attack. Fighting breeds have a much higher chance of reacting like this, and a much higher risk of causing terrible injuries if they do. It’s not their fault, and good training and a healthy environment can certainly produce good individual dogs. But that isn’t the same as saying they don’t a higher risk of killing or maiming as a breed.

Genes load the gun. The environment only pulls the trigger. Labs etc come with rubber bullets and safety catches. Fighting breeds are armour piercing rounds with hair triggers. The might not fire, but they kill if they do. All dogs can be dangerous, but big powerful, fighting dogs are the most dangerous, most often. Having one at all is quite a responsibility, but having one around a child is an unacceptable risk snd should absolutely have to consequences to stop other people taking the same risks. It’s what we do with any other child neglect, to deter other parents from making the same poor parenting decisions. The parents would face charges if the child had been accidentally killed or injured by any other weapon, because weapons shouldn’t be near children.

Never understand why you would even consider a dog like that with kids .

It makes me sick reading these reports of children being horribly injured or killed, and then the family being quoted talking about their little angel and how devastated they are, when they themselves exposed the child to the danger.

WTAF is wrong with some people!! What a disgusting thing to say!!
It’s like they enjoy reading stories like this just so they can push their ideas about what dogs breeds are and aren’t acceptable.

Almost everything you do as a parent exposes children to danger - driving them in a car, taking them to school, letting them go horse riding or trampolining, taking them on holiday via aeroplane, feeding them and not knowing they’re allergic to something, giving them medication or vaccinations.

I can’t believe anyone would imply that someone shouldn’t be sad that their child has died.
Of course you do things to keep your child safe but the majority of child deaths could have been avoided - it doesn’t mean you shouldn’t be sad that they’ve died.

@A580Hojas

I agree op and am sick to my back teeth of the dog lovers trilling about "there are no bad dogs only bad owners". This bullshit doesn't help the people mauled to death (let alone other animals) in any way does it?

I'd be willing to bet more people have been killed by dogs in the UK in the last 5 years than people killed by sharks in Australia in the same time.

Quick Google showed 20 deaths from dogs in last 5 years (uk) and 137 deaths from shark attacks (Australia) in 2021 alone. Not sure you'll find comparable shark attacks vs dog attacks in UK but that's the best I could find. Indicating shark attacks (where sharks frequent) are much higher than a dog attack. 20 deaths from dog attacks are still 20 too many.

10 years ago i would have encouraged most people to adopt dont shop, but seeing the amount of completely untrained and unsocialised dogs over recent years: theres no fucking way id adopt a dog right now.
The issue is with large breeds is of course, the damage and the power.

People get nipped by collies probably every day, but theyre unlikely to inflict as much damage.

I agree wholeheartedly with @Prescottdanni123
There should be a bloody IQ test to own a pet but sadly , we cant enforce this for having children so what chance has a pet got?
Truly truly heatbreaking.
I do hope other families think twice about how and where they get a dog from.

It’s not something I’ve thought about because I can hand on heart say I’ve never seen a single sign of aggression from the ABD, so it’s never come up in conversation.

Could I? I’d struggle to for sure, I don’t think I’d ever need to with this one, my collie cross I’d be more wary of if I had to pick one to be wary of.

And the ABD is most definitely not a ‘status’ dog. However, anyone who likes ABDs is automatically wrong on MN and I’ve made my peace with that.

I do just wish people would seriously consider the breeds before they buy.

Also mine isn’t one of the huge prick ear types, she’s the Scott type (not that that’ll make me less evil in the eyes of those against the breed)

Could you stop your collie cross?

@Bloodybridget

It makes me sick reading these reports of children being horribly injured or killed, and then the family being quoted talking about their little angel and how devastated they are, when they themselves exposed the child to the danger.

It's because we forget very easily that's dogs are stronger than us, because we see lovely friendly dogs everywhere. It's like we forget we're travelling along at 70+mph in a metal cage when driving. It's inherently dangerous to drive a car, and we do what we can to mitigate the risks. We train the drivers to safely drive cars that have safety standards, and follow the laws of the road.

Same with dog owners. Except there's no license, no training, no background checks, no requirement to buy from approved breeders, no checking on welfare of animal, no checking of home life.... No carry on, buy a random dog off the internet and within days allow it near your baby...

All you have to do is look at the stats posted by PP's - it's almost always Pitbull type, muscular dogs. Some of you can keep up your delusional comparisons and anecdotal evidence of being attacked by labs/Jack Russell all you want but the facts of which dogs cause most deaths are there in black and white.

I have 2 rescue dogs that although are a large breed, I could remove from a dangerous situation quite easily because they are not strong enough to overpower a grown adult.

Youre a bit mealy mouthed, but let's face it, many posters are taking about staffies. As a proud rescues staffy owner - a friendly and loving and affectionate cuddle monster who takes a liking to every person and dog he meets & who my vet has a soft spot for - this just adds fuel to the fire of people crossing the street, staring, tutting, voicing disapproval on a daily basis. It's not the breed, it's the owner's responsibility not to introduce an anxious, stressed adult dog in a completely new environment anywhere near a baby!

Bring back dog licenses.

Quick Google showed 20 deaths from dogs in last 5 years (uk) and 137 deaths from shark attacks (Australia) in 2021 alone. Not sure you'll find comparable shark attacks vs dog attacks in UK but that's the best I could find. Indicating shark attacks (where sharks frequent) are much higher than a dog attack. 20 deaths from dog attacks are still 20 too many.

Where did you get this info? My quick google lead to 11 shark deaths in 2021 in the whole world, 3 in Australia.
www.msn.com/en-gb/news/world/shark-attacks-increased-in-2021-following-three-years-of-decline-florida-scientists-say/ar-AAT7TiC#:~:text=There%20were%20a%20total%20of%2011%20shark-related%20fatalities,each%20had%20a%20single%20unprovoked%20fatal%20shark%20attack.?msclkid=4908c229abb711eca4d6331885a78395

Stop please saying ‘ would not leave the dog alone with a child’
In the St Helens case mother was with child and obviously could do nothing to stop a powerful dog killing the toddler.
Town is very underprivileged with a large number of idiots with status dogs.happened there 15 years ago with a five year old. Owner did time

I’m sorry but I hate the line ‘it’s how they’re raised’. Yes, obviously that helps, but if you breed from an aggressive dog you’re going to make it much harder to train the pups. The idea that genetics make no difference is mad - if this were the case, you wouldn’t get breed traits in other breeds, such as collies who heard despite never seeing a sheep or retrievers that pick everything up in sight.

I’m not saying that these types of dogs are inherently bad, at all. What I am saying is that there are breed lines in this breeds where the biggest, most powerful, most reactive dogs are bred together as a status symbol. Consequently, you end up with big powerful puppies who are more likely to become aggressive. Add in a shit upbringing or multiple change of owners and you have a recipe for disaster.

Yes raising a puppy correctly is important, but so is getting the pup from well bred parents who have an even temperament. Young lads are breeding these dogs and people are buying them with no ability to control such a strong dog if and when it all goes wrong. There are some lovely soft ones but they are more likely not to be - the stats speak for themselves here.

Could I? I’d struggle to for sure

I wouldn't have a dog I couldn't stop in an attack situation, either against myself, another person, a child or another dog.

@Pumperthepumper

Could you stop your collie cross?

Possibly. But she’s crossed with a staff so still got the powerful jaw, she is slighter than the ABD though.

It's OK saying no bad dogs, just bad owners and everyone visualising a staffie on a chain, with some tattood yoof and a spliff in his hand and going 'yeah, bad owner dat'.

How many families bought lockdown puppies that have had everyone at home for 2 years or so, taken out everyday for exercise walks, twice a day, 3 times a day. Days out with the family etc.

Now everyone back to work, young pampered pooch left at home 8-10 hours, pissed off, anxious, under exercised cos it's been too dark/wet/cold, everyone too tired blah blah blah. Reckon it's a ticking timebomb of dog related accidents and incidents to occur.

A bad owner can be middle class, it's just the breed of dog that changes. But with lockdown pups being so high in demand and price breeding for temperament won't have been high on the list of priorities.