Dogs… To think it doesn’t matter whether it’s a legal breed or not?!

[MsWalterMitty]

Just read about the recent child death in St Helen’s. It’s so awful!

The breed of dog has been released and it turns out it’s not an illegal breed. It’s called an American Bully XL, never heard of it so I googled it, even though I had an idea what it might look like due to its name.

Surely, whether it’s legal or not, this dog seems like a really stupid choice for a family!

Labs do kill kids.. a quick Google throws up plenty ... everything fro JRT up can kill a baby or child.

An inquest docket is being investigated by Oudtshoorn police after a little boy was mauled to death by the family dog on Saturday.
Police spokesperson Captain Malcolm Pojie said four-year-old Peter Frans died in hospital shortly after being bitten by the Labrador shortly before 10 pm.

Two-month-old Aiden McGrew was in a baby swing inside his Ridgeville, South Carolina, home when the family dog, Lucky, mauled him. The Golden Retriever/Labrador mix pulled Aiden from the swing and tore off the child's legs. Aiden's father was sleeping while the vicious attack took place, and the boy's mother found his body when she returned home. Aidan was rushed to the hospital where he was pronounced dead.

@Justgorgeous see below I forgot to tag you

@RobertaFirmino

Well Jack Russells are nasty, yappy little fuckers but *@Justgorgeous* was asking about Labradors - who seem to be very placid.

FWIW, the parents really do not need all the finger pointing. They found out the hard way.

My JRT is adorable. Not remotely nasty or yappy.

@WonderfulYou

So on average a man is about 50 times more likely to kill someone than a dog is.

Exactly!

Every single person on here who has ever left their child with a man - whether that’s their DH, brother or dad - has put their child at much greater risk than if they left their child with a dog, regardless of breed.

I disagree that it’s breed simply because it has the word bull in it as when I was growing up it was German Shepard’s, Rottweilers and Doberman’s.
Akita’s for example can do just as much damage as they’re just as strong but they’re not brought by twats as often as they’re not so much of a status dog so you don’t hear about them as much.

The issue is bigger than breed - it’s the fact that anyone can buy a dog and breed from it and sell it for £50 on gumtree. Look how many idiots brought puppies in lockdown.

We need stricter rules - ALL breeds of dogs should be neutered as law and if you want to breed you need to apply for a breeding license and sell the puppies responsibly.

Well, no. Because we aren’t talking about the average dog. We are talking about a dog with inbuilt, proven physical ability to kill, and a temperament and drive to want to do so. And while you can’t tell just by looking what sort of temperament a man has, you can tell by looking at a fighting dog that it has an immensely strong jaw and a crushing bite, and we KNOW they have the drive as well. There isn’t the same range of physical abilities in men as in dogs, and physical traits are linked with temperament in the same way.

I don’t think an Akita could do the same damage. They are big powerful dogs, but they don’t have comparable power in their jaws, and (crucially) they don’t have the same drive to bite down, hold on and shake. In short, they weren’t bred to fight.

I don’t think Akitas etc are great family dogs either, but in terms of lethality, we are still comparing air rifles to ak47s.

So it’s not the breed it’s the owner is just not a valid argument.

I have a cavalier King Charles. I chose it based on being biddable, child friendly and loving. If it showed any aggression with a child, it would be very easy for me to get the 7kg dog off.

Thankfully it hasn’t because it is a sweet dog and because it is bred to be a companion.

For the same reason, I wouldn’t get a terrier dog as while I could fend it off, it was originally bred to control vermin and temperament different to spaniels etc.

A bully dog went for me in the vets a couple of days ago. The owner told me, he was ‘friendly’ - she could barely control it on the lead. In my mind this was a wild dog, chalk and cheese to a family dog.

In the last year, 44 children have been murdered. 3 children were killed by dogs. No children should by men OR dogs.

I'm sure her parents dote on their kids. It's taken them 2 days to set up a goFundMe.

I’m rubbish at maths, but I think it would be really instructive to see a similar calculation of the comparative odds of a retriever killing someone compared to a fighting breed. I wonder if figures are available?

I'm not aware of such figures being published, but they'd be really quite misleading anyway because some breeds are much more popular than others, and so will be well represented in the figures simply because there are a lot of them in existence (e.g. labradors) while rare breeds with genuinely dodgy temperaments (e.g. Anatolian shepherds - really not cut out for pet life) don't really feature.

There are no good statistics out there on how many dogs there of each breed. The Kennel Club says how many puppies of each breed are registered with them but (a) not all purebred puppies are KC registered, and (b) the KC won't register crossbreed puppies at all (e.g. cockerpoos, XL bullies)

The point on the (badly written) number of deaths is that kids aren't 50 times more likely to be killed by people than dogs.

The one breed I don't trust around my kids especially is Labrador's.

My dog has been attacked twice by off the lead labs.

My neighbour has a chocolate lab which growled at another neighbours kids when they walked past it on the street.

My friend who has two boys the same age as me, has a lab and he growled at one of me kids even though he lives with kids

This so called family breed makes me nervous around kids. I definitely wouldn't own one.

@Clymene

The point on the (badly written) number of deaths is that kids aren't 50 times more likely to be killed by people than dogs.

They are more likely to be killed by humans?

learning.nspcc.org.uk/research-resources/statistics-briefings/child-deaths-abuse-neglect/

I'll probably get a right bashing for this but I'd take a punt they'd be less children killed by dogs if dogs were banned entirely from social and council housing.

Are you implying the DC and adults killed in the last decade were from council estates?
The last children whom come to mind in Ireland were both from middle families.

Articles below.

I'd link the savage attacks on sheep too but this thread is about DC however I'll assure you there isn't anythings run down in these areas.

www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/boy-who-died-after-being-attacked-by-rottweilers-named-locally-1.4210888#:~:text=A%20seven%2Dyear%2Dold%20boy,owned%20by%20the%20boy%27s%20family.

www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/locals-express-shock-after-baby-girl-killed-by-dog-in-waterford-village-1.4586480

However, based on the number of child homicides recorded by the police each year, we know that, on average, at least one child is killed a week in the UK

Published: December 2021

By humans that is

@Justgorgeous

When has a lab killed a child ?

www.news24.com/amp/you/archive/little-boy-killed-by-family-labrador-in-horror-attack-20170728

No dog breed can be relied upon to be placid. None. They all have instincts, they must be trained, they must be kept under control and in safe environments. What happened to that family is tragic, no need to blame them. Pretty sure they don't need more of that.

In my opinion that call Staffie a nanny dog are just totally obscene. How thick can you get? It’s the breed AND the owners that adds up to dead children. Ok so a lab has very rarely killed a child, but bull terriers kill kids regularly. I would no sooner have a staffie in my house for my kids to play with than I would an AK47.

@Indoctro

Labs do kill kids.. a quick Google throws up plenty ... everything fro JRT up can kill a baby or child.

An inquest docket is being investigated by Oudtshoorn police after a little boy was mauled to death by the family dog on Saturday.
Police spokesperson Captain Malcolm Pojie said four-year-old Peter Frans died in hospital shortly after being bitten by the Labrador shortly before 10 pm.

Two-month-old Aiden McGrew was in a baby swing inside his Ridgeville, South Carolina, home when the family dog, Lucky, mauled him. The Golden Retriever/Labrador mix pulled Aiden from the swing and tore off the child's legs. Aiden's father was sleeping while the vicious attack took place, and the boy's mother found his body when she returned home. Aidan was rushed to the hospital where he was pronounced dead.

The plural of anecdote is not data. Fighting breeds kill more people (per dog out there) and are therefore more dangerous. It’s their purpose.

In my opinion, having a dog in the house with a child is not an unacceptable risk that should be managed by the state. Having a fighting dog is and should be. It’s not an unforeseeable tragedy if a child is killed by a fighting dog. It’s completely predictable and if individuals won’t keep their children safe by not having weaponised breeds around them, the state should step in and legislate to prevent it, and prosecute to deter others from doing so. I’m sure the parents concerned thought the child wasn’t at risk and are devastated. That only gives to show that the risk should be managed by someone better able to assess it, doesn’t it?

@Eeksteek

It IS the breed. Labs and spaniels are bred to like being with people, to listen, to have weak mouths, to enjoy touch. Hundreds of generations of the survival of the soppiest! Fighting breeds were bred to react with aggression, to attack in a frenzy, to be wound up, to hold on with a crushing bite. If a lab snaps (generally out of fear and anxiety because it’s been poorly raised or it’s needs are not met) it snaps, and then runs away to safety, or can be pulled off. It will let go if hurt. It snaps in its own defence, because it doesn’t have hundreds of generations of being bred to strengthen its desire and ability to fight and attack. Fighting breeds have a much higher chance of reacting like this, and a much higher risk of causing terrible injuries if they do. It’s not their fault, and good training and a healthy environment can certainly produce good individual dogs. But that isn’t the same as saying they don’t a higher risk of killing or maiming as a breed.

Genes load the gun. The environment only pulls the trigger. Labs etc come with rubber bullets and safety catches. Fighting breeds are armour piercing rounds with hair triggers. The might not fire, but they kill if they do. All dogs can be dangerous, but big powerful, fighting dogs are the most dangerous, most often. Having one at all is quite a responsibility, but having one around a child is an unacceptable risk snd should absolutely have to consequences to stop other people taking the same risks. It’s what we do with any other child neglect, to deter other parents from making the same poor parenting decisions. The parents would face charges if the child had been accidentally killed or injured by any other weapon, because weapons shouldn’t be near children.

Yes to all of this. Well said.

I don’t let any kind of dog near my baby. legal or not they are beasts with instincts.

The problem is people personify their pets, even “sensible” well-to-do adults. They talk about them like they’re children and forget that they’re animals.

@FungalLurkins

It is worth remembering just how rare fatal dog attacks are. There are 12.5 million dogs in the UK (according to Google) and there have been roughly 3 fatal attacks per year in the last seven years. There are roughly 33 million men in the UK and there are 600 homicides per year, as roughly 92% of perpetrators are male, we can call that 550.

So the odds of a man killing are 550/33000000 = 0.00001666666

Odds of dog killing 3/12000000 = 0.00000024

Both tiny odds but the dogs odds are a whole two zeros more infinitesimal.

So on average a man is about 50 times more likely to kill someone than a dog is.

Not saying we should ban men btw but just trying to highlight how bad humans are at rational risk perception.

The whole point of this thread is to make the point that some breeds are significantly more likely to kill you than others. Suddenly switching to total numbers for all dogs is entirely misleading. The relevant number is the proportion of people who have one of these breeds who end up being killed by their dog or it killing someone else.

However, based on the number of child homicides recorded by the police each year, we know that, on average, at least one child is killed a week in the UK
Awful.
No-one is denying some adults are vicious - there has been a lot of DM'S responsible for murdering their DC over the last few years.
I'm always more stunned when it is a woman.

We had a "biter" when I was growing up ... the dog was eventually put down, but not before giving a fair few family members various scars.
The final straw was when the dog bit someone's index finger off. Now, I was only around 8 when it happened, but I still remember it like it was yesterday.

Dog was a pure breed Whippet, the person who lost the finger was my uncle who just brushed passed the dog in our garden. So totally unprovoked, the dog knew my uncle as he visited regularly.

My point being, no dog is 100% safe and all dogs can cause lasting damage!

@RobertaFirmino

Well Jack Russells are nasty, yappy little fuckers but *@Justgorgeous* was asking about Labradors - who seem to be very placid.

FWIW, the parents really do not need all the finger pointing. They found out the hard way.

Labs are in the top of these lists because yes they sometimes do bite/ can be aggressive. Because they are so popular - every 2nd owner seems to have a lab for eg - obviously that tips the scales a bit coz there's more labs around to possibly bite. So you get a high number of bites by Labrador reported.

I've actually known a few aggressive Labs, obviously it wasn't their fault but people just assume they are great family dogs - and mostly they are! But they need what all dogs need, training and socialisation and to never be left unsupervised with children.

This is so so sad but IMO it's down not to breed as such but human error I always think.

My dog is a big boy, he's a mixed breed. He adores children and was raised in a house with 2 little boys who were really quite rough and tumble with him.

I 'know' he's good with children, I know he's never even growled even when provoked but I still wouldn't leave him alone with a child.

I wouldn't even if he was a Chihuahua! Anyone ever been bitten by a Chi? It's not fun!

Any dog has the capacity to do serious damage, bigger dogs have the capacity to do greater damage faster. It's the human's responsibility to train/socialise dogs and to never leave children alone or unsupervised with them.

In my experience of bull mixes/ staffy/ rottie/ boxer dogs etc they have all been great with children and generally giant softies but their owners were all very switched on people and this makes all the difference.

So so sad.

I can’t understand why anyone would have such strong dogs with small children.

@Cyw2018

One of my neighbours has a young intact male English bull terrier, we live very rurally surrounded by fields full of livestock (sheep, cattle, and horses including foals).

It was a very sweet and playful puppy, but is now fully grown, and I am not the only dog walker in my area who is very wary of it. I will certainly be turning the other way to avoid it when out with my dog and/or DD.

It is just not necessary to have these extremely powerful breads that have historically been bred to be dangerous, and certainly not to keep males intact past 6 months when it is possible to castrate them.

@Cyw2018 you do realise neutering dogs is the biggest cause of fear aggression in male dogs..?

A un-neutered male dog is way less likely to fight than a neutered male.

Also neutered males will often attack unneutered males, down to fear.

I knew immediately on hearing this tragic story it would be a XL bully breed

So sad to have it confirmed in the news.

I saw a pup XL bully in my vets a few months ago. Owner was getting it weighed and the pup weighed 25kilos at only 4 months old. That's the same weight as my 2 year old male lab cross who has himself once pulled me over going for a squirrel. My boy is strong and I dread to think what that pup will be like fully grown.

No chance of ever stopping an attack.