Part 2: Female swimmers beaten by transgender athlete stage podium protest at ‘unfair’ result (

[pombear]

Hope you don't mind whytcvv just posting here as your thread reached the limit for posts

Posting your original OP here:- Ignore my previous thread-start as it didn't include important title"

whytcvv
When will the rules change as I completely agree this is unfair and I expect that you will all largely agree with me.

For anyone that doesn't agree, please explain your reasoning to help me better understand.

This reminds me of the weightlifting story from last year.

People that are born female and people who are born male should not be competing in these events together. Our physical bodies are not comparable.

Have as many genders as you can think of, but there are only two possible sexes that you can be born as and that is what eligibility in these competitions should be based on.

AIBU

Link to previous thread: www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/4508526-female-swimmers-beaten-by-transgender-athlete-stage-podium-protest-at-unfair-result

Speaking of bodies ....

One of the US News channels used a filter on Thomas' face in their broadcast. Reality denial to the extreme. They couldn't let Thomas look like Thomas on their channel.

twitter.com/janeclarejones/status/1505291742005936129?s=20&t=UHvmDHOWM0McgXPiYoeNmQ

[quote Helleofabore]Speaking of bodies ....

One of the US News channels used a filter on Thomas' face in their broadcast. Reality denial to the extreme. They couldn't let Thomas look like Thomas on their channel.

twitter.com/janeclarejones/status/1505291742005936129?s=20&t=UHvmDHOWM0McgXPiYoeNmQ[/quote]
Thomas still looks like a male in the first picture. Just a male who's tuning in from the moon, that's all.

I found this from the letter to the NYT from the parents of female swimmers in the NCAAs spot on:

'Athletic associations are cautiously asking: How do we balance fairness and inclusion? And they ask scientists to tell them the precise level to which a male body needs to be impaired to compete fairly against women.'

'But they are asking the wrong questions. These questions are misogynistic, degrading, and dehumanizing for women. There is no balance of fairness to assess. Women deserve fairness without caveat, and they should not be asked to shoulder the mental health of others at their own expense. A male body cannot become a female body. A woman is not a disadvantaged man.'

@DrivingHomeChristmas

It’s not just about physique and biology- sportspeople will tell you it’s psychology far more than training.

So you would genuinely tell elite female athletes at the top of their sport internationally, who are now competing against trans women who had the full benefit of male puberty, that it's their "psychology far more than training" that means they are unable to get times anywhere close to the trans women?

You'd say that to them? To their faces? And mean it?

Gosh.

A woman is not a disadvantaged man.

I've been saying a woman is not a man who's fucked with his hormones a bit, but this is pretty good too.

Do these people not realise how unbelievably misogynistic and pig ignorant it is to claim that a woman is just a kind of modified man? A man with skewy chemicals?

Psychology more than training?

So women could have escaped thousands of years of oppression if they'd just thought about it a bit more?

That is a man. What's being perpetrated on women by trans ideology is a fucking disgrace.

@DrSbaitso

Psychology more than training?

So women could have escaped thousands of years of oppression if they'd just thought about it a bit more?

If only someone has told us we simply needed to try harder eh? Silly us!

Apparently Lia Thomas came last in the 100yd freestyle.

So....

A few weeks back at the Ivy League championships, Lia won a race by miles, over half a length.
2 days ago Lia won a National championship race, and the video clearly showed Lia was not kicking like the other competitors were. Huge backlash, everyone saying how unfair it is.
Lia then comes last in the latest race.

Its not that difficult to see what is happening here is it?

This is how it has to be played though isn't it? Of course the likes of Lia Thomas can't come in and thrash all the competition in one go can they? That then completely eliminates the idea that transwomen don't have any advantage over women. This has to be a slow drip, TRAs need to have the opportunity to say 'look, Lia is just like any other woman, they don't win all the time'. Otherwise it's game over before it's even got off the ground.

It doesn't matter though, because every time a male is competing, they are taking the opportunity away from a female. Lia Thomas has no right to be competing in these National Championships. They were nowhere near the top when they were competing in the men's.

I knew this would happen. Lia Thomas (or her ilk) winning totally shoots The Cause in the foot. The whole modus operandi has been a subtle creep behind the scenes; a public spectacle would alert the ordinary citizen to the ludicrousness of total inclusion. It has to be gradual and legislated for and happen before anyone has a chance to notice and object.

Depressing as it is, sport is highly likely going to be the thing that peaks most people - TRAs know it has to be played very carefully.

The main argument will of course be 'if transwomen have such an advantage, how come they don't win every race?' High profile trans athletes will know that they will not be allowed to win every race, that even they will have to make sacrifices in order to keep it all going. Times will be scrutinised and analysed to come up with the optimum formula to keep the facade of fairness alive.

But obviously the women competing against them won't know if it will be their particular race that they will be 'allowed' to win in.

A woman is not a disadvantaged man.

Well summarised

Kaitlin Jenner described losing that race as "sandbagging" and clearly deliberate. That anyone could think that sort of thing would go unnoticed in a world of professional sports and high levels of scrutiny, demonstrates staggering self belief.

@Hasselhoffsheadband

Apparently Lia Thomas came last in the 100yd freestyle.

So....

A few weeks back at the Ivy League championships, Lia won a race by miles, over half a length.
2 days ago Lia won a National championship race, and the video clearly showed Lia was not kicking like the other competitors were. Huge backlash, everyone saying how unfair it is.
Lia then comes last in the latest race.

Its not that difficult to see what is happening here is it?

This is how it has to be played though isn't it? Of course the likes of Lia Thomas can't come in and thrash all the competition in one go can they? That then completely eliminates the idea that transwomen don't have any advantage over women. This has to be a slow drip, TRAs need to have the opportunity to say 'look, Lia is just like any other woman, they don't win all the time'. Otherwise it's game over before it's even got off the ground.

It doesn't matter though, because every time a male is competing, they are taking the opportunity away from a female. Lia Thomas has no right to be competing in these National Championships. They were nowhere near the top when they were competing in the men's.

Thomas came last in that race , previously has more experience at longer distance and perhaps most relevant there was a transman in that race. It's pretty good optics for Thomas to be beaten by her.

Henig good friend of Thomas, is tall strong, very promising short distance swimmer, has had a mastectomy but said has not yet taken testosterone. Henig is on the Yale women's team and is referred to as "he" and almost always photographed topless (some very tight scarring visible) despite being officially a female swmer.

@Hasselhoffsheadband

Apparently Lia Thomas came last in the 100yd freestyle.

So....

A few weeks back at the Ivy League championships, Lia won a race by miles, over half a length.
2 days ago Lia won a National championship race, and the video clearly showed Lia was not kicking like the other competitors were. Huge backlash, everyone saying how unfair it is.
Lia then comes last in the latest race.

Its not that difficult to see what is happening here is it?

This is how it has to be played though isn't it? Of course the likes of Lia Thomas can't come in and thrash all the competition in one go can they? That then completely eliminates the idea that transwomen don't have any advantage over women. This has to be a slow drip, TRAs need to have the opportunity to say 'look, Lia is just like any other woman, they don't win all the time'. Otherwise it's game over before it's even got off the ground.

It doesn't matter though, because every time a male is competing, they are taking the opportunity away from a female. Lia Thomas has no right to be competing in these National Championships. They were nowhere near the top when they were competing in the men's.

It reminds me of Laurel Hubbard, who took gold in the Pacific Games, after hitting middle age and taking performance inhibiting drugs, while up against ultimate women.

Then, after getting into the Olympics - because now, even older, on the drugs for even longer and after an injury that could have been career ending and after never being more than a middling national level competitor even in career prime, Hubbard is suddenly world class when set against the world's top women - Hubbard suddenly forgot how to lift the weights at all. But don't worry. It proved that there's no male athletic advantage going on and Hubbard failed the lift due to age or just suddenly forgetting how to lift after taking the Pacific gold. Obviously.

(What? You want to know why no females of that age and relatively crap condition and level made it that far? Or why no transmen made it to equivalent levels against natal males? Shut up, transphobe.)

There's a long game being played here.

*A few weeks back at the Ivy League championships, Lia won a race by miles, over half a length.
2 days ago Lia won a National championship race, and the video clearly showed Lia was not kicking like the other competitors were. Huge backlash, everyone saying how unfair it is.
Lia then comes last in the latest race.

Its not that difficult to see what is happening here is it?*

I think this really shows how calculated it is, as well. Most comments, even when criticising the situation, act like Lia is just a wide-eyed athlete unaware of the controversy. But Lia is very deliberately gaming the system.

Here are Henig and Thomas together, Henig in February and Henig at championships.

I would be very interested to watch a video of the race that Thomas came last in.

On Twitter there is a video from the Ivy League championships of Thomas winning and even the commentators said that 'there isn't a whole lot of movement in her legs' - Thomas isn't kicking at all in that video!

There is also Rachel McKinnon who competes in track cycling, and won the world Masters championships back in 2018.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7600807/Canadian-transgender-cyclist-accuses-woman-beat-poor-sportsmanship.html

Interesting definition of 'poor sportsmanship' imo!

I'm not interested in swimming so wasn't aware of either Thomas or Henig until yesterday but read quite a lot of articles online last night. One thing that struck me was in an interview with Henig there was a quote something along the lines of "I realised I could start hormone therapy and race with the men's squad, or socially transition and remain on the women's squad. So I decide to delay hormone treatment and to continue to swim on the women's squad." I wonder why that might be? How strange that Thomas has such drive to "swim as my authentic self" whereas Henig's is more "I'll be my authentic self after I've finished swimming thanks". What possible reason could there be for that difference? I can't think. 🙄
So basically the idea seems to be that we have two classes "proper men" and "everyone else". Big surprise. How about "women" and "everyone else" instead?

Looks like US swimming and NCAA now have men's and non-men's categories.

@WanderinWomb

Looks like US swimming and NCAA now have men's and non-men's categories.

Men's and open.

I'm new here and so thankful to hear the positive support for girl's and women's sport. Former junior International swimmer, now an ultra runner with 25 years in Physical Education, I currently work in a more influential role and I have recently felt utter dismay at the way girls and women are dismissed in almost every facet. May I urge you all to follow the most well-known British advocate in this, Sharron Davies, and give a quick like to her posts. Others cannot publicly back this for fear of professional and personal reprisals.
And as a gay woman who is completely inclusive and champions the courage of TW and TM, at the same time safe places for born-females are essential, including toilets, prisons, hospitals and changing rooms so let's not leave JK Rowling to be burned at the stake