Children expressing emotions AIBU

[Idkiibu]

Me and my friend have different parenting styles. But reflecting back from our yesterday’s conversation with her, I’m trying to understand AIBU towards my own 2 children?
We are talking about children aged 7-10 years old. My friend’s children are sometimes tired after school etc and it comes out the way that I wouldn’t personally accept from my own children, e.g. shouting at parents, kicking things, saying rude staff like “shut up” and slamming the door. My friend talks to her children in a calm way and is trying to “ride it out”. I respect her patience, I really do.
But I don’t accept this with my own. A few times it happened I said to my children firmly that I’m always there for them, they can embrace me and spend time with me, they can tell me everything and we will find the way out of the situation, etc etc. But I don’t deserve to be shouted at and there will be no door slamming at my house, so they have to approach me in a different way and I’ll help them then. I don’t want my children to bottle things up, but am I wrong that at this age they have to learn not to hurt others emotionally even if they are upset? On the other hand, children are only learning about how to express themselves and can’t always control their emotions.
I feel like our approaches are different and that’s fine but am I too strict to my children? It’s not like they are not allowed to be upset or cry, it’s the aggression and shouting I can’t stomach. One day when my friend’s DS (9) was tired after his own party, he said to his mother “shut up, I hate you”. My heart was broken for her and I don’t know how she managed to stay calm. I said nothing and never mentioned it again after she said “it’s been a long day, he’s so tired”.
Our children don’t have SEN and do well at school, no behaviour concerns etc.

If children are very emotional (to the point of being overwhelmed or in fight /flight mode) then no, their behaviour is not a choice. It doesn’t seem appropriate to put your own feelings before theirs in such a situation, insisting that they consider your emotions before they are even able to control their own.

On the other hand if it’s just grumpiness, I think your no-tolerance approach is fair enough (but punishment will only breed resentment, just ask them not to, explain why, and leave it at that).

Also - have a think about the behaviour you are modelling for your children. If you get ‘triggered’ by your child’s behaviour and respond by shouting crossly - the child is going to learn that shouting crossly is what people do when they’re annoyed. You will end up in the trap of reinforcing the behaviour you’re seeking to discourage.

I also grew up with a lot of shouting and aggression so find it difficult. I think if you are comfortable with your kids expressing their negative feelings in some other natural way then it's ok to draw that boundary.

My problem is my background made me a people pleaser and extremely anxious so I don't deal well with ANY expression if unhappiness or anger from my kids (or my partner, or indeed anybody). It's the frightened child in me always hyper attuned for the coming storm. So I can be very intolerant of, e.g., my child crying for a "stupid" reason - I guess because her upset affects me so profoundly, my whole mind and body respond to it and somehow I resent that adrenalin being activated because she broke the red pen or doesn't like her dinner or whatever. I have to really watch myself not to shut her down, diminish her upset, tell her she's not really upset of that she has no reason to be. I'm well aware how damaging all that is. But for those of us with a difficult background it can be very hard to be exposed to others' emotions without feeling a desperate need to "fix it" - it's a hard wired response from when our fate was dictated by other people's feelings, and big emotions make us feel unsafe.

Actually reading your comments has reinforced to me hoe much work I still have to do as a parent. You are very defensive of your position as someone "sensitive"; but that's not sensitivity we have - it's damage. And performing it in our parenting will damage our children.

Someone who isn't damaged like we are will not be knocked down by their child blurting "I hate you!" after a hard-to-organise treat. Because their self esteem is such that they know they don't deserve it, that their child doesn't hate them, that they have done enough and are a good parent. We feel it so hard because we don't have that sense of self, we rely on how others treat us for our self esteem, so someone disregarding us hits us where it hurts - our fragile egos. Right in that tender place that wails "I try SO HARD and it's never good enough!"

I can see this in your posts and I can see it in my parenting. I really need to do so much better to be my children's safe space, not to make them pay the price for my crappy childhood.

[quote Idkiibu]@Quartz2208
But it is about me too. Relationships are a two way street? We all have feelings and our own struggles. We are always there for them and I agree maybe I’m too sensitive but “I hate you” would really knock me down.[/quote]
You ow it to yourself and your child to unravel this in therapy.

The parent-child dynamic is different to that between two equal adult parties. You are expecting your child to accommodate your "feelings and struggles" ie all your own bullshit that you should not be saddling them with.

It sounds like perhaps the parenting you had as a child modelled something similar, where your own emotional needs were disregarded.

You are not too sensitive by the way - you are astonishingly insensitive to the actual developmental needs of your child.

You are only keenly sensitive to your own feelings, which is quite different.

owe, not ow

I remember my ds once saying 'Even when I hate you I love you'. Couldn't have made me happier

@Quartz2208

The thing is it isnt about YOU. DS has on occasion told me he hates me. He doesnt at all - he is overwhelmed for whatever reason and he cant articulate that in the way he wants to so he says that. Because he loves me and he knows I love him unconditionally.

For my children I and their home is a safe space. A space where they can let go a little bit of the day whilst learning how to regulate them

I lean towards this. I have ADHD and child is awaiting assessment for it too. Sometimes it all just gets too much. I really regret not understanding it sooner because I was very 'conditional' in my parenting. That was the kind of parenting I had. I won't be that parent again.

I find it interesting that you have framed a child's behaviour when feeling emotionally overwhelmed as a choice

But then say 'I can't deal with them angry so have to wait til they calm down'. How you deal with your emotion, is also your choice?

You are choosing to deal with it how you want to deal with it, even if it doesn't suit their needs. You don't like the shouting and anger so choose not deal with it until they present themselves in a way yiu find acceptable. What of one of them feels overwhelmed but needs you to help them calm down? You can't deal with that?

You will only deal with them on your own terms.

You also tell your children their behaviour scares you, that's not great (imo) either.

I am not saying you are entirely wrong. But I dont think your friend is either. You can look at both at say its not ideal.

[quote Idkiibu]@pointythings
So you would make another party and face the same behaviour again? What would you do? Let’s say you talked about it and it happened again. Tell me what would you do.[/quote]
I would look at the underlying cause and persist with the strategy of not punishing but talking about it later. And yes, I would keep trying and keep talking about what happened because learning emotional regulation is a process not a decision. These things take time - sometimes they take months and years. You seem incredibly black and white in your thinking - the child has been told this is wrong, therefore the behaviour must never happen again and if it does, it's because the child is wilfully refusing to learn. You seem to be unable to understand that a particular behaviour can be triggered by very many things. Again, you seem to have zero understanding of child development. Learning emotional regulation is in part about neurological development, which takes years. You can't rush it or change the pace it progresses at because you can't hurry biology. Your refusal to understand this makes me very sad for your children.

I've raised two children to adulthood and had many difficult moments, but I've never had to resort to the kind of uncaring thinking you are exhibiting around parenting. Put your children first, not your own emotions and experiences.

@OnceMoreWithoutFeeling

Actually reading your comments has reinforced to me hoe much work I still have to do as a parent. You are very defensive of your position as someone "sensitive"; but that's not sensitivity we have - it's damage. And performing it in our parenting will damage our children.

Someone who isn't damaged like we are will not be knocked down by their child blurting "I hate you!" after a hard-to-organise treat. Because their self esteem is such that they know they don't deserve it, that their child doesn't hate them, that they have done enough and are a good parent. We feel it so hard because we don't have that sense of self, we rely on how others treat us for our self esteem, so someone disregarding us hits us where it hurts - our fragile egos. Right in that tender place that wails "I try SO HARD and it's never good enough!"

I can see this in your posts and I can see it in my parenting. I really need to do so much better to be my children's safe space, not to make them pay the price for my crappy childhood.

And that is where you are different from OP - you know the problem lies with you and that you need to work on it. You have my utmost respect.

I am sorry you had such a shit childhood.

@ufucoffee

I wouldn't put up with that behaviour from my children tired or not. No excuse for it and I'd bollock them.

This.

My younger two are 15 and 16. They’ve never shouted at us or told us they hate us. I absolutely wouldn’t tolerate it.

They can cry, rant, and get their emotions out anyway. I’m there to console them and help them, I don’t ask them to stop unless their rudeness is directed to me or DH personally or damage to our home is done because that’s not the right way and I draw a line there and I feel like I have to say something.
I can be grumpy after work and dump it all on my DH’s head, and I’m sure if he enables it long enough, it would become a new normal. Maybe I will even kick a sofa in frustration? Or I can express my worries without insulting his person, which is a better option.
I actually remember talking to my DS explaining him that if I were going around screaming and throwing stuff across the room, it’d not be ideal. I remember watching a funny video about adults behaving like toddlers together, humour helped a lot.
Reading through responses I do understand now that my children actually do usually stop after being said “Please stop! It’s not my fault so stop shouting at me. I know you’re upset so let’s talk about it, come I will give you a hug and let’s see what we can do”. I understand it doesn’t work for everyone hence the difference in approach.
There was a period of time where my DD got upset every time she didn’t win in a board game. She would make a big story out of it and would moan and stomp her feet for ages how it’s unfair and its everyone’s fault she didn’t get what she wanted. Distractions didn’t work either. I said ok, if we can’t just have fun, I don’t see a point in playing. Sometimes you win, sometimes you don’t. It took some time for her, but it’s fine now. Still grumpy if she doesn’t win, but we can still have a nice evening.
Thanks everyone for your responses, there’s a lot to think about. We are not perfect but we live and learn.

I think there are a lot of sensible replies on this thread, especially OnceMoreWithFeeling.

OP, you remind me of my DH. He had a difficult childhood with an explosive mother. He finds it very difficult to stay calm in response to our DC's anger; he's said several times that he finds it triggering. Like you he takes DC's words and behaviour very personally, and mine too actually. DH has said quite a few other things that you've written in your posts, for example he often expresses an expectation that DC should treat him with respect, that it's two-way (ie DC should treat us how he likes to me treated) but our DC has only just turned 5!!! I've lost count of the number of times I've said to DH than our DC is just not capable of all this yet, he's still so young and learning to understand and manage his emotions.

DH has had quite a lot of therapy and it helps. I strongly advise you to get some if you can. And read these books: "Toxic Parents" by Susan Forward and "The Book You Wish your parents had read" by Philippa Perry.

I think your observations about your friend are a bit of a red herring, really. You come across as judgy but I think this is more about your own insecurities as a person and as a parent.

Not going to waste into the who is a better parent convo but you may be interested to know about a thing called zones of regulation which is brilliant for children learning to manage emotions.

www.zonesofregulation.com/index.html

Please stop! It’s not my fault so stop shouting at me. I know you’re upset so let’s talk about it, come I will give you a hug and let’s see what we can do”.

But that's completely different to what you said in previous posts.

For me, the only thing a parent needs to be in consistent and authentic.

There's no point trying to implement a parenting strategy that just isn't inline with your own personality and values - you're going to fail really quickly if you try.

If you're a touchy feely let's talk about our emotions kind of person - that's how you're going to parent. If you're the no nonsense sort - then that's how you're going to parent.

If you're a normal person, a normal parent doing the best you can - you're better off honing techniques that work with your own style, rather than trying to imitate someone else.

Some children will run amok with gentle parenting styles. Other children would be absolutely terrified of a more authoritarian approach.

Remember your kids have your DNA and have been with you since they were in the womb - so chances are they'll respond best to your way. Not always - of course. Sometimes parents hit road blockers or have a more sensitive or bullish child than they were preequipped for but I think to answer your question - look at the outcome.

How are your children? Do they respond to you? Do they come for cuddles, share secrets and stories with you? Do they respect your 'final word'? Are they happy? Are they thriving at school? Do you enjoy family time? If you don't have any major behavioural problems then your way is working for your kids.

Your friends children could come stay at your house a week and be demonstrating signs of anxiety because of your approach and your children could be at your friends and hanging from the rafters because they don't respect the adult in the room.

In short - your way is the right way for your children. Your friends way is the right way for her children. And likely if you swapped kids then your way would stop being the right way.

@Kinko

I really hate this view I'm afraid as it presupposes mentally healthy parents. I was exposed to dysfunction from birth until adulthood. I remember it being a huge shock to me arriving at uni and realising just how fucked up my family was by comparison to the majority. It sent me into a tailspin, I had to go to counselling. Just socialising with normal people and their normal families (at secondary I seemed to gravitate subconsciously to 'my kind', and had a v small group of close friends from similarly dysfunctional homes).

This lifelong exposure means I am fundamentally damaged, my personality development has been affected in fundamental ways. If I parented according to my personality, as comes naturally, 'authentically', I would be anxious, temperamental, suspicious, needy, defensive, emotionally incontinent. That, sadly, is not just "mental health symptoms" that can be evaporated by medication, it's what I am like because it's what the parenting I was given made me into.

To be a good parent I have to control these responses, deny them, find ways to overcome them, sometimes I even need "scripts" to help me behave in a supportive and functional way. Someone calling that "inauthentic", whilst possibly accurate, is incredibly painful. My love for my children is authentic and absolute. My damaged nervous system does not, inherently, know how to experience or express that love in a healthy way. So I do need "methods", I do read the parenting books and blogs, I have to fight against what's "natural" to me every day. Because no, my kids aren't magically made so as to thrive on dysfunction.

OnceMoreWithoutFeeling, that is incredibly hard. If you can access some quality psychotherapy, I think it could really help.

@OnceMoreWithoutFeeling

What strikes me is you saying you feel hurt my their anger. It's important to remember that they're kids and you're an adult. Bringing your emotions into the situation isn't fair. I remember this growing up and it made me feel really trapped and angry. It can be a type of emotional blackmail imo.

You should wait till you've calmed down to deal with an incident. And explain how their behaviour is rude an unacceptable. Make it about the behaviour rather than about you. Don't force them to apologize unless it's very extreme. They might feel you're being unfair so you could be building resentment.

Also I would be very reluctant to have a go my kids in front of someone else as it's humiliating. Doesn't mean I wouldn't have a word later.

Thanks kind people. Responsible thing would have been not to have kids at all really but I didn't realise how much I was impacted before. Kind of s "phew, thank goodness I'm out of that!" POV. Only later I started joining the dots. Having kids yourself is such a headfuck for childhood trauma. You have this awful rupture re how you feel about your little baby and how your parents behaved - then as they get older and start pushing your buttons the horror of seeing it all start coming out in you too. On the other hand they are amazing so I can't say I wouldn't do it all again unfortunately.

Personally, I don’t think kicking things and shouting abusive or hurtful things at people is an acceptable way of expressing emotions, and I don’t think kids should grow up thinking that it is. Fine to feel angry or sad. Not fine to express it by taking it out on others or their property. I would worry that it normalises behaviour that, when they are older, would be abusive. If they’re taught that it’s OK to kick furniture and say nasty things when they’re angry, when does that stop? At what age does it stop being a tantrum and start being abusive? When they’re 14, is it going to be OK for them to scream abuse at their girlfriend/boyfriend? What about when they’re an adult? What about when an adult in the family smashes a plate in anger and shouts “I hate you” at the other parent? Or at the child?

I think people seem to be willfully missing the point which is that the expression of anger, distress, confusion or whatever is not the issue, its the directing it at another person, whether that be a sibling or parent (or someone else) that seems to be the issue. And rightly so, empathy is taught by showing empathy but also by helping children understand the way our actions impact on others.

@oncemorewithoutfeeling

I'm sorry for what you've been through. Let's start there and I mean that genuinely. Sounds awful.

I did actually write quite a long paragraph talking about how this wouldn't apply if someone had suffered from dysfunction etc - but I looked at it and thought it was too wordy, and not particularly relevant to the OP's question. So I took it out. Please bare in mind that my post was written for the OP.

My overall stance was - if your kids are thriving then you're getting it right. The OP's friends children, may not thrive under her care and vice versa. I talked about outcomes. That part was really important for the overall context of the post. If you're child is anxious you might need to amend your style. If their sensitive or more bullish you might need to amend your style but if your kids are thriving as the OP suggested hers were (and her friends children were) then the outcome should reassure that their natural style is working for their respective kids.

As evidenced in your post, you weren't thriving as a child. When I listed the questions about outcomes you would likely answer no to all of them when reflecting on your own childhood. The whole advice changes in your circumstances, which I did touch upon in my post. I just didn't go into huge caveats and details.

Hope that clears my response up for you and helps you see it in the spirit it was intended towards the OP.

It's great that you are honing techniques that perhaps weren't part of your natural style but you do it to ensure your children thrive. What is authentic about that is your consistent demonstration of your own self-awareness. You've taken hard lessons, turned them around, and are aiming to do much better by your children, that is an authentic approach. It's all in the outcomes, which is raising emotionally stable, healthy, and secure children.

However, someone reading my post would need to implicitly understand that 'authentic' was only meant in a positive way and not meant to encourage those who have abusive personalities to continue being their 'authentic selves' because that's not at all what I believe. I will do better next time to write the caveat (or just not delete it!) xx