Ridiculously high heels - Apprentice Final Four

[axolotlfloof]

Just watching this week's episode.
Really pleased to see 4 women in the final, but why the heels?
Even Karen is wearing them.
They are bad for your feet, balance and just ridiculous.
My Mum's feet were destroyed by heels in the 60s, and I prioritise walking over heels.
Aibu?

@Iamthewombat

I wonder whether anyone will have the balls to admit that they don’t like other women looking more attractive than them, and that’s the reason for the bizarre anger at anyone wearing shoes with heels, or fitted clothes, or make up.

Yep

Not yep I'm jealous, yep I agree with you

I'm just going to leave this here.

The girls have stunning figures, wish I wasn't so lazy and went to the gym more, not sure I am jealous but if I had figures like them then I would wear much more flattering clothes than I do now!!

I work in the higher courts. Theres a dress code. It wouldn't go down well with the judges.

Are you seriously suggesting that judges would disapprove of court ushers wearing shoes with heels, or make up, or a fitted dress? Don’t be silly. Have you discussed the matter with them personally?

Judges are there to be impartial, and to preside over cases accordingly. Not to form negative views of defendants, witnesses, barristers and legal teams based on whether their shoes have heels. You do them a disservice by suggesting otherwise.

I'm not angry with the women wearing them, I'm sad for these particular individuals

Like you’re going to admit to envy or the anger that follows it. Of course not. You just feel sad for those poor deluded fools choosing to wear fitted dresses, mae up and shoes with heels.

You have to wonder whether they'd even allow someone like Ruth Badger on the programme nowadays

What is ‘someone like Ruth Badger’? Someone who doesn’t wear skirts and heels? (Although I laughed at the picture @hangrylady posted). Perhaps you didn’t notice Shama Amin on this year’s show. She had to drop out because of illness.

Women wear heels to look taller and therefore slimmer than they are.

@Iamthewombat

I work in the higher courts. Theres a dress code. It wouldn't go down well with the judges.

Are you seriously suggesting that judges would disapprove of court ushers wearing shoes with heels, or make up, or a fitted dress? Don’t be silly. Have you discussed the matter with them personally?

Judges are there to be impartial, and to preside over cases accordingly. Not to form negative views of defendants, witnesses, barristers and legal teams based on whether their shoes have heels. You do them a disservice by suggesting otherwise.

I've been made to remove make-up, including nail varnish, before now at work - glad to know that was due to jealousy of my lovely manicure!

I'm not angry with the women wearing them, I'm sad for these particular individuals that they've been made to present this image of successful woman that seems to be so dependent on what they wear and how they look, particularly given that it's an image that just doesn't accord with reality.

I think you're a tad out of touch though. A lot of the candidates haven't actually worked corporate jobs or even worked in offices, many have started businesses at home that they promote heavily on social media, or like harpreet who owns a successful dessert shop. Plenty of people in their twenties (and beyond) like to wear clothes like this, head into a bar or look through some insta pages. These aren't some naive, eager and keen business minds that have come in from working their 9-5 in an office, they're approaching business from a different angle, and just because they're women doesn't mean they're stupid; I suspect if you asked any of them if they thought their dress and heels would be pivotal to their success they'd say no.

I am not envious of them- perhaps their youth and prospects but not their looks or dress code.
Wearing heels and dresses that tight really restricts movement. I find it sad that happens. Men don’t do that to themselves.

Mum knackered her feet and back wearing heels - she was tiny and dad was tall. She couldn’t wear flats and even her slippers had a small heel.

Not good in the long run!

I'm quite happy not being as sexy as the heel wearers

I've been made to remove make-up, including nail varnish, before now at work - glad to know that was due to jealousy of my lovely manicure!

I’ll assume that you are wilfully not getting it.

There are plenty of jobs where you can’t wear nail varnish, food service for example. That’s not what we’re talking about.

The PP claimed that judges in (for example) the high court of justice would form a negative impression of people working in their courts, or being tried in their courts, or acting as a witness in their courts, on the grounds that they wore heels, or make up, or fitted dresses. It was described as “not going down well”.

A judge is there to make sure that cases are tried according to the law and, later, to determine the penalty. If you think that a judge would somehow depart from the law because he or she didn’t like the fact that someone in their court looked glamorous, you do a great disservice to judges. That is why I think that the PP is talking out of her backside.

I don’t think it’s been uncommon in the past for female pupils / barristers to have been instructed on the appropriateness of jewellery, nail polish, lipstick, tights etc for appearances in court?

I'm not angry with the women wearing them, I'm sad for these particular individuals

Like you’re going to admit to envy or the anger that follows it. Of course not. You just feel sad for those poor deluded fools choosing to wear fitted dresses, mae up and shoes with heels

You think I've envious of this lot, @Iamthewombat? If only you knew how funny that is.

I don't watch The Apprentice. It is a game show in my opinion long past its sell by date.

The main thing that comes to mind is that no-one should ever be forced to wear heels for their work, or even made to feel uncomfortable choosing 'flat' shoes. Neither should being shorter than average be looked as being something bad or to be disguised.

There is a dress code for barristers: smart dark clothing and a horsehair wig. You can’t turn up to court in jeans and a hoodie. That applies to both sexes.

(There is a famous tax case, Mallalieu v Drummond, about barristers’ clothing, if interested. The now baroness Mallalieu argued, unsuccessfully, that the cost of her court clothes should have been tax-deductible.)

However, it is rather a stretch to go from ‘there is a dress code for barristers’ to ‘it wouldn’t go down well with a judge if you wear heels, fitted dresses and make up’.

I bet if you looked at a sample of female barristers, you’d find that a fair number of them wore all three of those things and - guess what! - I don’t think that any judge has reprimanded any of them for wearing what are quite anodyne items of clothing.

I realise that this will be disappointing news to anyone who wishes to argue that wearing heels, make up or fitted dresses makes women look ‘cheap’ or ‘like a drag queen’.

Yes, there’s a written and unwritten dress code for barristers, and it’s remarkably strict, even down to colour of suits / skirt lengths / blouse materials / tights, and (drum roll) colour and style of shoes. The BPTC used to tell students (they may still do) how many points they lose for wearing the wrong coloured shoes in assessments for instance.

So no, tight dresses and vertiginous heels are not going to go down well.

@Polyanthus2

Women wear heels to look taller and therefore slimmer than they are.

How can they look slimmer than they are, if it’s just them in heels? Their body, wearing heels! . It is them - not someone else who’s suddenly slimmer than them.

@TheAbbotOfUnreason

Yes, there’s a written and unwritten dress code for barristers, and it’s remarkably strict, even down to colour of suits / skirt lengths / blouse materials / tights, and (drum roll) colour and style of shoes. The BPTC used to tell students (they may still do) how many points they lose for wearing the wrong coloured shoes in assessments for instance.

So no, tight dresses and vertiginous heels are not going to go down well.

A dress can be ‘tight’ (do you mean fitted?) and smart simultaneously.

I think you are conflating other elements of court dress with the subject of the thread.

Barristers are expected to wear dark coloured shoes. For obvious reasons: nobody wants the jury to be distracted by leopard print shoes worn with court dress, for example. Nowhere in the guidance does it say that barristers cannot wear dark coloured shoes with high (or in your words, ‘vertiginous’) heels.

Barristers are expected to wear dark clothing. You note that they can’t wear brightly coloured suits or (I assume this is what you mean by ‘blouse materials’) transparent blouses. Duh. Nowhere does the guidance say, ‘you cannot wear a dark fitted dress to court’.

The guidance on barristers’ clothing, similarly, does not forbid the wearing of make up. You might want to avoid chandelier earrings and black lipstick, but the women who are the target of the ire on this thread are only wearing make up. I can’t see any judge objecting to a well made up face. Although I notice that it’s difficult for some posters to grasp that it is possible to wear make up and not look like ‘a drag queen from Ru Paul’s Drag Race’.

And none of the analysis of the finer points of court dress for barristers explains why the wearing of heels, fitted dresses or make up by people including barristers working in a court or participating in a case “wouldn’t go down well with the judges”.

However, it is rather a stretch to go from ‘there is a dress code for barristers’ to ‘it wouldn’t go down well with a judge if you wear heels, fitted dresses and make up’.

Judges are there to be impartial, and to preside over cases accordingly. Not to form negative views of defendants, witnesses, barristers and legal teams based on whether their shoes have heels. You do them a disservice by suggesting otherwise.

The title of the thread is literally about "ridiculously high heels" not "heels".

If a judge will tell a barrister that he can't hear them in court because he doesn't approve of a piece of jewellery or because a waistcoat isn't buttoned up (yes, that has happened) and the BPTC tells pupils that assessment points will be deducted for stilettoes, then how do you think "ridiculously high heels" will be received?

If they're not confiscated at security on the way in (and yes, that has happened too).

Anyway, I'm going to bow out because you really are determined to prove some kind of point that I really don't care about. People can dress how they want, other people's choice of footwear doesn't bother me personally.

@Jaffapaffa

I've been told today that I have to teach my class (Y8) that heels are part of a work wardrobe for women, and that if you want to succeed, it's essential to wear them.

I've objected several times, but have been told that it's not optional.

I'm really not comfortable with this at all.

But yes, apparently there's still a school of thought that says women must wear heels to be successful - hence their appearance in The Apprentice, I suppose.

I work for a High Street PLC in senior management (IT dept).... please also counter the argument that women need heels, with the fact that hybrid working also allows me to spend my home days in zoom calls with my pjs on.... they are lucky if my hair is washed.

Iamthewombat The PP claimed that judges in (for example) the high court of justice would form a negative impression of people working in their courts, or being tried in their courts, or acting as a witness in their courts, on the grounds that they wore heels, or make up, or fitted dresses. It was described as “not going down well”.

I did not. That is your lack of attention to detail and desire to be rude and show off to your audience talking by making up statements, adding to them and then wrongly attributing them.

TheAbbottofUnreason Yes, there’s a written and unwritten dress code for barristers, and it’s remarkably strict, even down to colour of suits / skirt lengths / blouse materials / tights, and (drum roll) colour and style of shoes. The BPTC used to tell students (they may still do) how many points they lose for wearing the wrong coloured shoes in assessments for instance.

So no, tight dresses and vertiginous heels are not going to go down well.

Yes, its dark blue, dark grey or black, and shoes must be black. There is no guidance on the style of shoes. It is suggested that blouses be white. Most of my court time is spent in case management hearings and not wearing a wig and gown.

Obviously you have never worked in the higher courts and have never heard juniors told that their dress is unsuitable, or heard the tales of someone being "given a word" about their clothes. Its a court, not a place to show off your latest fashion shoe purchase. Make up should be under-stated too, so excessive amounts would probably result in a warning too. Many now wear their hair loose but I prefer mine tied back.

Of course you can wear high heels, but not ridiculously high heels that belong in a night club or party, and people aren't uniformly wearing high heels as if its some sort of uniform as on The Apprentice.

I alternate between white blouses and black trousers or skirts, or black dresses like the one shown, but I would always wear a blouse under it or a scarf round my neck with it. I would not wear a tight fitting or body con dress and I would generally wear a jacket over a dress anyway. These are actually the shoes I am wearing at present - I like a bit of a heel for my calves, but many now wear flats or low heels. They must just be smart and black but the height cannot be commented upon because it would clearly constitute indirect discrimination. Those days are now thankfully gone and if there are any dinosaurs out there trying to dictate that women should wear high heels to look smart, they won't last long and no-one will listen to them any more anyway.

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