To seek assurances that I’ll be put on a single sex ward?

[Thoosa]

Not single gender. Single sex.

Im due for one, maybe two, surgeries this year. I’m a DV and rape survivor.

I’m nervous.

[quote Piper22]@lifeturnsonadime what evidence are you referring to which suggests women need to be in fear of their safety from sharing a staffed hospital ward with a trans woman? How does it differ from the evidence about consequences to patient safety from male workers and visitors?

Please, someone, point me in some sort of evidence based direction.[/quote]
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4507790-Hospital-told-police-patient-not-raped-because-attacker-transgender

This thread is a useful starting point.

@Piper22 you are so funny

It is. It's good that you're not trying to claim that your post wasn't misogynistic.

@maddy68

Trans people have as much rights as you to use the NHS. I am really sorry about what happened to you and I do understand your anxiety but you can't expect special treatment in an over stretched NHS. You're lucky to get a bed! You can ask but you can't demand. Could you pay for a private room?.

Of course trans people are entitled to use the NHS.

Ditto men are, of course, entitled to use the NHS.

(We all are, actually, so I’m wincing a bit at “You’re lucky to get a bed!” It is supposed to be universal healthcare, after all, and I’ve waited a long time - which is fine - but I do think we all have rights to expect treatment as soon as practicable.)

I don’t think most trans women are rapists.

I don’t think most men are rapists.

I am keen to avoid ever being raped again. So I constantly conduct my own personal safeguarding assessments.

So my issue with hospitals is just that I don’t want to share space with strangers with penises (how did we get to this tortured phraseology?) while I’m vulnerable.

I’m perfectly happy to share sleeping space with people who don’t have penises.

@lifeturnsonadime no, it isn’t. One appalling incident and a load of people commenting on it doesn’t equate to evidence of a legitimate overarching safety risk. This is true of any topic of discussion, not just the one we’re currently debating

In the trust I work for there is only 2 all same sex wards one gyne and the other labour. The other wards all have separate male and female bays.

[quote Piper22]@lifeturnsonadime what evidence are you referring to which suggests women need to be in fear of their safety from sharing a staffed hospital ward with a trans woman? How does it differ from the evidence about consequences to patient safety from male workers and visitors?

Please, someone, point me in some sort of evidence based direction.[/quote]
Intereating that you retreat to safety. Women are not entitled to such things as security or dignity, then.

Visitors are only on the ward during specific visiting hours; they are not supposed to be there when patients are sleeping, during ward rounds, and so on.

Start here.

Abstract

With the exception of specialized units, adults have historically been cared for in single-sex hospital wards in the UK. However, over the past two decades, concerns about mixed-sex wards have been reported. Respect and dignity are essential to provide high-quality health care. The issue of whether patients' privacy and dignity are compromised by mixed-sex wards is addressed in this article. Qualitative data were obtained from both nurses and patients on a mixed-sex surgical ward specializing in urology, to obtain individual perspectives relating to factors affecting dignity on the ward. Nurses tried hard to keep bays single-sex but, due to bed shortages, they were under continual pressure to mix the bays. Some patients of both sexes and varied ages perceived that a mixed-sex care environment threatened their dignity. They experienced a lack of privacy, worried about bodily exposure and felt uncomfortable. Nurses used various strategies to reduce patients' discomfort. Mixed sex accommodation is an unacceptable solution to bed shortages.

Baillie L. Mixed-sex wards and patient dignity: nurses and patients perspectives. Br J Nurs. 2008 Oct 23-Nov 12;17(19):1220-5. doi: 10.12968/bjon.2008.17.19.31461. PMID: 18974690. [accessed digitally 18th March 2022]

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/18974690/

@Piper22

twitter.com/baroness_nichol/status/1504884038137491461?s=21

The rape by a trans woman in a hospital was not an isolated incident.

@beenaroundtheblox

Wards are rarely single sex I'm afraid. Apart from the obvious maternity related wards which will obviously remain so.

By the time I had my third child (after quite a gap) ~10 years ago, even that ward was awash with male partners all night, unfortunately. That was a horrible first night.

Ask if your consultant does work under NHS choose & book at your nearest private hospital & if so can you be transfered there. That way you will be guaranteed a single ensuite room. What speciality are you being admitted under?

It's not just about statistical risk, it's about treating women with dignity.

@Piper22

How many women need to be raped in hospital by trans women to be enough?

Why does the safety and dignity of women mean so little to you?

And not gaslighting them. If it's a mixed sex ward this needs to be made clear.

@iolaus

In all honesty I've only come across one transperson who was an inpatient - he was given a single room rather than being put in a bay

I don't think he would have minded being in a bay, but it was generally seen as there was a chance that one, or more, of the other women in the bay (gynaecological ward) wouldn't have liked it, so he was in a single room

I suspect that many other hospitals would do the same, because you probably wouldn't be the only one to object, and rather than waiting for you to complain and then move you it's easier to stop the situation from arising

I hope so. It’s really not personal at all.

I appreciate it’s a balancing act, but IMO, it does need balancing.

They shouldn't tell anything else about anyone else's gender. That patient has a right to confidentiality as much as you do.

@PurgatoryOfPotholes what do you mean by security? That’s an interesting choice of word. That research article doesn’t particularly relate to the issue of trans women. Do you have anything you can share which is relevant?

@Jojobees

Is paying for a side room an option? Lots of wards have amenity rooms that you pay for meaning total and utter privacy?

I doubt they do any more. Siderooms are usually at a premium. And are used for clinical need only. I've never ever heard a hospital offering this..

@lifeturnsonadime I believe the answer to this is always n+1, n being the number of women who’ve been raped/assaulted/harassed/abused etc

No matterthe number of women affected it’s never enough women to matter apparently

That research article doesn’t particularly relate to the issue of trans women. Do you have anything you can share which is relevant?

It's extremely relevant, because MTF trans people are as male as any other male person. Nice example of the gaslighting on this issue.

@vastgrandupgrade

They won’t be able to guarantee single sex. There will be male staff for a start.

That’s a different kettle of fish in terms of safeguarding, though, isn’t it?

I’m not one to put all my faith in DBS checks, but with male HCPs there is a great deal of safeguarding on top of DBS, including professional registration, and the sheer fact of being known by colleagues.

@Toddlerteaplease

They shouldn't tell anything else about anyone else's gender. That patient has a right to confidentiality as much as you do.

Probably best not to put them on a supposedly female-only ward where fellow patients might overhear medical information that would be revealing., then. Put them in a side-room, for their own confidentiality.

Piper

Feature Inpatient Care
Mixed sex wards: progress towards elimination is slipping Published 30 October 2019)

Emma Wilkinson, freelance journalist, Sheffield, [email protected]

Breaches of rules enforcing separate men’s and women’s accommodation are creeping up again, findsEmma Wilkinson, while patients call for the rules to be made even stronger

Dolly Sen from Norfolk remembers being an inpatient in a bay on a mental health ward and men coming in to ask for sex. She had stayed in mixed sex hospital accommodation many times, and on this occasion a man pushed her against a wall and assaulted her, she toldThe BMJ.

“You’re feeling vulnerable. A hospital ward should be a safe space. It does not feel safe being around men who don’t have inhibitions,” she said.

Sen’s experience was in the early 2000s, before the government’s 2011 pledge to abolish all mixed sex NHS hospital accommodation in England except in intensive care units and emergency departments. Scotland, Wales, and Northern Ireland had by then already scrapped mixed sex accommodation.

The 2011 pledge was limited to stopping the sexes sharing sleeping areas, bathrooms, and toilets or having to cross mixed sex areas to reach these facilities. To meet the rules hospitals could use single rooms, wards for men or women only, or mixed wards but with separate bays or rooms for men and women. The caveat “except where it is in the overall best interest of the patient” gave trusts wiggle room in emergency situations or when patients need highly specialised treatment in a critical care unit.1The rules have been suspended in times of peak winter pressure.

But the 2011 rules aren’t always followed, and incidents such as Sen’s persist. And many patients and doctors think that the rules don’t go far enough in the first place.

In 2018, after inspectors found an unnamed trust to be breaching the rules and several patients reported sexual incidents, the English regulator …

Continues: www.bmj.com/content/367/bmj.l6107

BMJ2019;367:l6107

[quote lifeturnsonadime]@Piper22

How many women need to be raped in hospital by trans women to be enough?

Why does the safety and dignity of women mean so little to you?[/quote]
Oh come on, that is really such a ridiculous comment. If you’re going to debate the topic please show some restraint and think before you post something so outlandish. More biologically female women have been assaulted by male care providers than they ever have or will be by trans women. Are you advocating for same sex care provision too?

They shouldn't tell anything else about anyone else's gender. That patient has a right to confidentiality as much as you do.

Women have a right to know if there will be males on their ward. Sex, not gender. That loophole badly needs closing.

[quote Theeyeballsinthefuckingsky]@lifeturnsonadime I believe the answer to this is always n+1, n being the number of women who’ve been raped/assaulted/harassed/abused etc

No matterthe number of women affected it’s never enough women to matter apparently[/quote]
When I read some of these arguments, I do feel rape victims are dismissed as collateral damage.

The fact is that if it happens to you, or nearly happens to you, the statistics become utterly meaningless. Even more so, if it was avoidable, I’d think.

I think you'll find most women who want single sex wards to be single sex do think women should be able to choose whether a male performs intimate care procedures on them, yes.