Gotten

[WinniePig]

I’ve noticed many Americans using the term “gotten” and assumed it’s American English. Fine. But it’s not a word I would associate with good grammar on this side of the pond. Anyway, I’ve read a number of threads on here recently where the OP has written “gotten” in their original post (and each time I see it I shudder). Even worse…the dodgy verb crops up in this news article on the BBC (third para from end). The BBC (holds head in hands).

www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-latin-america-60789542

AIBU to despair at how this horrible little verb is infecting the English language…

FOUR SAUSAGES?

@PuppyMonkey

FOUR SAUSAGES?

I KNOW!!

@IsFuzzyBeagMise

How do ye feel about 'I was sat'?

I don't use it, but I see it written on these boards quite often.

It grates on me. It just sounds so wrong to me.

I think the difference between "I was sat" and gotten is that "I was sat" is not am archaic construct that has been retained in some dialects and died out on others. It is, as far as I know, the equivalent of the war "could of" seems to be heading in British English in that it is used by so many that it becomes acceptable.

Can anyone with knowledge of older forms of English tell me is that the case?

OchonAgusOchon I think the difference between "I was sat" and gotten is that "I was sat" is not am archaic construct that has been retained in some dialects and died out on others. It is, as far as I know, the equivalent of the war "could of" seems to be heading in British English in that it is used by so many that it becomes acceptable.

I think they're both archaic forms of English using words which, like most English words, have lost their prefix.

So in English, the prefix for "sat" would be "a-" as in "a-sat" I think. Still retained in "afar", "afraid" etc and more obscurely in words like yclept and yclad.

Or it might be from "I was seated", I'm not an expert on dialect!

I use it exclusivly. As does everyone else in Ireland.

When I hear 'got' it sounds wrong to me, like when someone says 'We was...!

Considering the mangled english most people seem to speak nowadays I think there are worse things to worry about.

Put that in your draw, OP.

@SucculentChalice

OchonAgusOchon I think the difference between "I was sat" and gotten is that "I was sat" is not am archaic construct that has been retained in some dialects and died out on others. It is, as far as I know, the equivalent of the war "could of" seems to be heading in British English in that it is used by so many that it becomes acceptable.

I think they're both archaic forms of English using words which, like most English words, have lost their prefix.

So in English, the prefix for "sat" would be "a-" as in "a-sat" I think. Still retained in "afar", "afraid" etc and more obscurely in words like yclept and yclad.

Interesting. I had always assumed it was just poor grammar that had become normalised through frequency of use. I'll try and be less irritated by it then

I'm now starting to wonder about phrases like "I done" and "I seen". These are both very common where I live in Ireland. Again, I had assumed this was just normalisation through frequency of use.

American English has evolved more slowly than UK English. Although "gotten" is considered archaic in the UK, it's still common usage in America.

It is considered an "Americanism" here and usually avoided in formal speech or writing.

@NiceWelshLady

American English has evolved more slowly than UK English. Although "gotten" is considered archaic in the UK, it's still common usage in America.

It is considered an "Americanism" here and usually avoided in formal speech or writing.

Except it's not just an Americanism. It's also used in Hiberno-english. According to some posters it's also used in Scottish English.

Anyone from Australia or New Zealand around to tell us is it used there too?

@PoxyAndIKnowIt

While I suspected that "gotten" wasn't invented in the USA, and would have a history in UK English, my other suspicion, that it wasn't just an Americanism, was wrong. It really is almost entirely a USA thing, apparently

Have you read the thread? There are plenty of posters saying that it is common in Hiberno- English. It was certainly commonly used in the area of Scotland where I grew up.

I read a link which on an analysis of books text shows it was hardly used in UK English. (Although there has been an increase since the 50s, presumable due to reimporting from USA.)

I don't know if Scots don't use it in writing, or if they just don't write enough books to raise the UK average.

Ochon - your reply does not change what I said. "Gotten" is considered archaic in UK English and an Americanism. Although - just like other Americanisms - you might occasionally hear it used in the UK, it is not standard UK English.

If it originated in U.K. English, it isn't just an Americanism, is it?

I should have been clearer, I meant today it is an Americanism. It's hardly used in the UK any more. At least in writing, I'm basing this on a link that gave a statistical analysis of its prevalence in different places and times.

@SartresSoul

Hate it but I’m an English teacher so not a fan of Americanism’s in general. They’re creeping into our lingo so much they will eventually take over. See Mother’s Day and Santa Claus as prime examples.

I'd have thought English teachers would be more open than most to language quirks. Prescriptivism in language teaching was proven to be a pretty useless didactic method as long ago as the early 70s. Were you trained a very long time ago?

@SucculentChalice

I hate everything about the word "gotten", but particularly when the stating-the-obvious types pop up to point out for the trillioneth time that its an American older form of English.

Yes, but Americans use it correctly as the past tense that it always was here before language moved on and used the shortened version "got" which doesn't require the auxilliary verb (usually "have") for it to make sense!

Then someone else will pop up and say its a Scottish word, which will confuse virtually every Scot, until some northern English people pop up and say they use it in their area.

We all know its an attempt to appear trendy by being more American. Modern English stopped using 6 letters plus an auxilliary verb hundreds of years ago. American English has presumably preserved it because what became the US had a variety of languages spoken before English became dominant, including Dutch, French and some indigenous languages, so that is why the more formal past tense was preserved.

What I don't understand in American English is "it fit me". Surely "it fitted me" or "it fits me" is correct. Where did that one come from?

"Gotten" isn't, and never has been, the "past tense" in either British, or US English.

"Fit" and "fitted" are both correct. The former is preferred in US English, the latter in British English.

PS- your keyboard should have an apostrophe key -perhaps you could read up on its usage, which would ultimately be more useful (and less embarrassing for you) than frothing about something you evidently know very little about.

@SucculentChalice

WeCouldBeSparrows Is forgotten also poor English? It's used in exactly the same way...

I have forgotten (singular past tense) - correct
I forgot (singular present tense) -correct
We forget (plural present tense) - correct
We forgot (plural past tense) - correct

I got (singular present tense) - correct
I have gotten (singular past tense) - correct
I've gotten (singular abbreviated past tense) - correct
We have gotten (plural past tense) - correct
I've gotten used in the English-imported-wrongly-from-American-English way to mean in the present tense - incorrect

Good God.

I have forgotten- present perfect tense
I forgot- simple past tense
We forget- present simple
We forgot- past simple

I got- past simple
I have gotten- present perfect
I've gotten- present perfect
We have gotten- present perfect
I've gotten used - present perfect of "to get used to + ing" (not an Americanism)

Please for the love of all that is holy- you aren't an English teacher, are you?

@IsFuzzyBeagMise- you quoted this poster and said they were "correct". They really couldn't have been less correct if they tried.

Haha you'd hate me OP, I say tooken 'tuken' instead of taken or take. It's just a dialect thing. No big deal.

@PAFMO you are correct. I retract! I read that hastily.

I say 'I have gotten used to ...' myself very often.

note to self; read posts more carefully

I use gotten too, as did my grandparents. I'm Irish so speak Hiberno-English and as others have said gotten is widely used here (though maybe more in oral than in written language).

I've also heard amn't from time to time DropYourSword.

'I was sat' instead of 'I was sitting' sounds all kinds of wrong to me, as does 'I was laying down'. My DC seem to pick up these expressions from TV or YouTube and I do correct them. I understand that their use is considered standard in some English dialects though.

I think what annoys people when others complain about gotten is the associated judgement. It's fine if you don't want to use the word, and want to preserve your own dialect, I understand that completely. Some seem to judge others as illiterate or poorly educated for their use of a different dialect though, and this seems very unfair. Perhaps the OP wasn't guilty of this, but gotten comes up time and time again on MN, and some people do sneer at its use. (Haitch is another one.) We don't all come from the same place and the use of gotten has been retained on this side of the Atlantic much more than some seem to realise.

I speak a little Irish too. There are three remaining major dialects of Irish and each is considered to be equally correct. It might be nice if the varying dialects of English were afforded the same respect. Even dictionaries are moving from prescriptive to descriptive use of language now, but I don't think the shift has happened yet for some people.

I know its a few months away yet, but celebrating Halloween isn't an American import either...

Just thought I'd add that one since we've already had Santa mentioned.

Perfectly said @LizzieAnt

Hate it but I’m an English teacher so not a fan of Americanism’s in general.

Are you quite sure you're an English teacher? If you taught my dc, they'd be correcting your apostrophes!

Yet another petty, unpleasant thread about perfectly acceptable English. Being irritated by regional language use, and sneering at so-called Americanisms (i.e. correct American English) is narrow-minded and prejudiced. English, like all languages, is rich and subject to variations and changes. Get over it.

There are three remaining major dialects of Irish and each is considered to be equally correct. It might be nice if the varying dialects of English were afforded the same respect.

👏 Amen to that!

Languages evolve

Yep. Unless you still use old English then you have no argument.

YANBU, it drives me mad. So inelegant.

@WinniePig

I’ve noticed many Americans using the term “gotten” and assumed it’s American English. Fine. But it’s not a word I would associate with good grammar on this side of the pond. Anyway, I’ve read a number of threads on here recently where the OP has written “gotten” in their original post (and each time I see it I shudder). Even worse…the dodgy verb crops up in this news article on the BBC (third para from end). The BBC (holds head in hands).

www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-latin-america-60789542

AIBU to despair at how this horrible little verb is infecting the English language…

Someone else may have already done so but can I refer you to the excellent Bill Bryson's Mother Tongue for clarification of so-called 'Americanisms' and other interesting linguistic facts.