Gotten

[WinniePig]

I’ve noticed many Americans using the term “gotten” and assumed it’s American English. Fine. But it’s not a word I would associate with good grammar on this side of the pond. Anyway, I’ve read a number of threads on here recently where the OP has written “gotten” in their original post (and each time I see it I shudder). Even worse…the dodgy verb crops up in this news article on the BBC (third para from end). The BBC (holds head in hands).

www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-latin-america-60789542

AIBU to despair at how this horrible little verb is infecting the English language…

This is interesting. The use of got versus gotten as a past participle depends on the meaning of the verb too. Got in the sense of must or have is treated differently to got in the sense of became or received.

getproofed.com/writing-tips/word-choice-got-vs-gotten/

I think these types of distinctions are natural to a native speaker familiar with the word and aren't usually thought about too much. I'd take the examples about the hat upthread to mean something other than when the hat was in your possession, SucculentChalice. It's more about the meaning of the verb - to have versus to receive.

I've gotten a hat = I've received or obtained a hat
I've got a hat = I have a hat

Using the word gotten allows the distinction, actually. It allows clarity regarding the particular meaning of the verb.

Gotten is widely used in Ireland (which isn't mentioned in the article ) though probably more in speech than in writing.

OK. I must have not noticed it somehow! Will listen out for it. I just thought it might be a West Coast thing, if I'd not heard it.

I grew up in eastern Scotland and it was very commonly used. Don't hear it quite as much now though

@Hospedia

Gotten is part of the pitmatic dialect too, spoken around various parts of Northumberland and Durham. We also use "off of", said to my own DC this morning when I told them "get off of that wall before you fall" - the 'of' is pronounced more like 'uv'.

Yes we'd say off of as kids as well as gotten. I grew up in the Scottish Borders so I guess there would be plenty overlap if language between there and north England. As with gotten I don't here it as much now but I do live further north which could be the reason rather than it actually being over all less used

Did all the people on here who say “gotten” start saying it after reading Shakespeare, and out of a desire to resurrect old English?
Or did they watch too much Netflix in lockdown?

No Netflix or lockdowns in the 80's when we were all saying it, and I didn't read Shakespeare til at least the mid 90's so neither is an explanation. It was simply normal language

Hate it.

@Sarahcoggles

The “gotten defenders” use the same arguments every time on these threads - it’s regional, it’s old English etc. OK that’s fine - regional use is fine, people who’ve said gotten since they started to talk are fine. People who use gotten because they read a lot of Shakespeare and other historical literature - also fine. But anyone else - please tell me this - why did you say “got” for most of your adult life, then start saying “gotten” in the last few years? What was the reason?

I've used 'gotten' my entire life. Originally West of Scotland. Ubiquitous there.

Why would anyone start using it only in the last few years?

On another note, how do peeps feel about the fairly common, informal WoS use of the word 'but'?

The “gotten defenders” use the same arguments every time on these threads - it’s regional, it’s old English etc. OK that’s fine - regional use is fine, people who’ve said gotten since they started to talk are fine. People who use gotten because they read a lot of Shakespeare and other historical literature - also fine. But anyone else - please tell me this - why did you say “got” for most of your adult life, then start saying “gotten” in the last few years? What was the reason?

Do you really think people start using it after always previously using 'got'? I've never seen that happen tbh.

Anyway, why does it matter? If the pedants' delicate ears can cope with hearing the word 'gotten' when said by Americans, Shakespeare enthusiasts and users of regional English, why are they suddenly enraged beyond all reason by hearing the exact same word from the lips of someone who happens not to belong to those categories?

If I heard, for example, a 25yo Londoner saying 'gotten', I'd certainly notice (I'm a linguist) and would think 'Oh - gotten - that's mildly unusual for a Londoner', but rather than thinking 'Argh - that's sooo annoying. It's not as if she's American!', I'd probably think she listened to or watched a lot of American content, or was brought up by parents from a part of the UK where 'gotten' is normal. Either way, so what?

Do you really think people start using it after always previously using 'got'? I've never seen that happen tbh.

Tbf I pick up language quite easily and, not with gotten as that's something I used as a child in the 80' s but not so much now, but with many other things. I've lived all over the UK and also abroad so been exposed to different dialects and I've probably picked at least one or 2 sayings up from many of them. Similarly now back home if I was to work closely with someone from elsewhere and they used certain language often I might end up picking that up. The same can't be said for things I see fleetingly on tv. It's doubtful people have been saying it because Americans do but more likely they work beside/ socialise with someone from an area where it's common or have lived somewhere where

As PP have noted, it is a traditional English word. I’m an historian and am very familiar with the word from early modern manuscripts.
Other phrases that we in the UK tend to assume are Americanisms but which are actually traditional English words include diaper instead of nappy.

As many have said, language changes. English is particularly good at it, which is why it has spread so readily.

So, on the one hand, yes, you're being unreasonable to object to that.

But, on the other hand, no, it's perfectly reasonable to have a few personal bugbears about usage, even though you know you're on a loser.

For instance, 'iconic' in its new meaning of 'notable' or 'memorable' pisses me off.

"Ohh, and Bukayo Saka scores an iconic goal there!!!!"

No, he doesn't. No, no - shut up, you tosser.

But to my grandchildren the meaning that I feel has been lost - 'symbolic of an ideal' - will just be an interesting part of the word's etymology.

[quote mathanxiety]@knitnerd90, if I recall correctly, you are in the US too, and I agree with your observation wrt American use of got and gotten.[/quote]
Yep - also in the USA. My English is a complete mess at this point so I use my American-raised-and-schooled children as data points!

interesting one though: In American English, you can say I've got/he's got, etc, to mean "I have": "I've got a sandwich for lunch." My hypothesis is that it's because they perceive "I've" on its own to be inadequate. But you can't use it for get. "I"ve gotten you/I got you a chicken sandwich for lunch." And you can only use it contracted: You can say "I have a sandwich" or "I've got a sandwich" but you cannot say "I have got a sandwich" in AmE.

English, in all its dialects, obeys all sorts of rules we don't think about! (See also: "I'm eating cookies" versus "I eat cookies." We distinguish what's happening now from an habitual action, and this distinction can trip up English language learners. I've been studying Spanish as it would be very useful for work, and it's made me think about these issues in English.)