Gotten

[WinniePig]

I’ve noticed many Americans using the term “gotten” and assumed it’s American English. Fine. But it’s not a word I would associate with good grammar on this side of the pond. Anyway, I’ve read a number of threads on here recently where the OP has written “gotten” in their original post (and each time I see it I shudder). Even worse…the dodgy verb crops up in this news article on the BBC (third para from end). The BBC (holds head in hands).

www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-latin-america-60789542

AIBU to despair at how this horrible little verb is infecting the English language…

@NiceWelshLady

Ochon - your reply does not change what I said. "Gotten" is considered archaic in UK English and an Americanism. Although - just like other Americanisms - you might occasionally hear it used in the UK, it is not standard UK English.

My point was that those who consider it to be Americanism are incorrect, at least with my understanding of the term.

I would consider an Americanism to be a term or word that is only used in American English. As gotten is also a normal part of Hiberno-english at least, I would consider it to be a term not used in some variants of English

"Gotten" is considered archaic in UK English and an Americanism. Although - just like other Americanisms - you might occasionally hear it used in the UK, it is not standard UK English

So what though? The fact that a particular word or phrase is used in 'non-standard' UK English and in American English does not mean it's acceptable to sneer at it or bang on about how irritating it is. People are allowed to use 'non-standard' UK English. For some of them it is the normal usage for the place where they live or were brought up. Others have picked up 'gotten' because it is used a lot. Since it is archaic but not incorrect in UK, so what? I expect it will become more and more common. Nothing you can do to stop that - it's how language changes.

I find these references to UK English rather bizarre. I am making the assumption, and do please correct me if I'm wrong, that the term is being used by English posters and that they are actually referring to English English.

Northern Ireland is in the UK. Hiberno-english is spoken by many living there. Scotland also has its own variant of English as does (I assume - I'm not terribly familiar with it) Wales.

It's a very insular attitude really.

For those PPs who keep referring to Standard English, what do you think this means? By any chance do you mean Southern England English and presuming this makes any other English English dialect improper?

As an aside, why do you think it is improper to split infinitives in English English?

@OchonAgusOchonOh Indeed. BTW, there is a range of English English dialects and Norse influences are felt in the Northern to Midlands dialect continuum but I think many people just think Southern England English is 'proper' and everything else is lazy, wrong or wrong and lazy.

it is not standard UK English

Says who?

@TheKeatingFive

it is not standard UK English

Says who?

People that have an issue with Americanisms, mainly, I suspect.

People that have an issue with Americanisms, mainly, I suspect.

Mumsnet arbiters of 'standards' 😂

I think it's come back to us from American TV such as Friends and Gilmore Girls. You don't have to like it though.

I've noticed lately, that American's also use the word "Conversate", as in "we were having a conversation". That's new!

Don't get me started on the over use of the word LIKE.

[quote Zilla1]@OchonAgusOchonOh Indeed. BTW, there is a range of English English dialects and Norse influences are felt in the Northern to Midlands dialect continuum but I think many people just think Southern England English is 'proper' and everything else is lazy, wrong or wrong and lazy.[/quote]
I know there are lots of English dialects in England but are they considered to be official dialects in the way Hiberno-english is, for example? If they're not, why not?

These types of threads have gotten so old.

Like it or not, 'like' is also a feature of my dialect. We tag it onto the end of a sentence.

'Do you know what I mean, like?'

@DontLookBackInAnger1

These types of threads have gotten so old.

Excellent example of the correct use of gotten

@IsFuzzyBeagMise

Like it or not, 'like' is also a feature of my dialect. We tag it onto the end of a sentence.

'Do you know what I mean, like?'

Don't forget "you know, like"

Absolutely Ochon!

'

The “gotten defenders” use the same arguments every time on these threads - it’s regional, it’s old English etc. OK that’s fine - regional use is fine, people who’ve said gotten since they started to talk are fine. People who use gotten because they read a lot of Shakespeare and other historical literature - also fine.
But anyone else - please tell me this - why did you say “got” for most of your adult life, then start saying “gotten” in the last few years? What was the reason?

Demented by 'gotten'

@Sarahcoggles

The “gotten defenders” use the same arguments every time on these threads - it’s regional, it’s old English etc. OK that’s fine - regional use is fine, people who’ve said gotten since they started to talk are fine. People who use gotten because they read a lot of Shakespeare and other historical literature - also fine. But anyone else - please tell me this - why did you say “got” for most of your adult life, then start saying “gotten” in the last few years? What was the reason?

Maybe the gotten defenders wouldn't need to use this, or any other, defence if the objectors weren't so strident and objectionable in their attitudes towards dialects other than their own.

@OchonAgusOchonOh

I find these references to UK English rather bizarre. I am making the assumption, and do please correct me if I'm wrong, that the term is being used by English posters and that they are actually referring to English English.

Northern Ireland is in the UK. Hiberno-english is spoken by many living there. Scotland also has its own variant of English as does (I assume - I'm not terribly familiar with it) Wales.

It's a very insular attitude really.

No. British English is the correct linguistic term to differentiate it from American English, Australian English, South African English etc. In short- it's one of the many Englishes considered to be perfectly correct when using national and international parameters. Obviously, each one of those then get broken down again into regional Englishes. In this case, British English is being compared to American English so it's the correct term.

@JenniferBarkley

This mystified me when I first joined MN, and now it infuriates me.

Such angst over a perfectly normal, everyday word. If you don't use it that's fine, but your ancestors likely did and as others have said it never fell our of use in the US, Scotland and Ireland. Probably parts of England too.

Even if it was a pure Americanism, what's the problem with that? The hatred of all things American is a very ugly side to MN and must be very unpleasant for American users to read.

I'm American and yes, it upsets me that so many on here simply just can't help themselves with finding something, anything to criticize us.

It is not a good look to me.

Trust me, there's plenty of things about British culture and language that I find absolutely silly but I just laugh it off and just accept that it's just the way the culture is and go on with my day.

Perhaps many on here could do the same.
I doubt it though. I'm sure they'll be another thread in a few days...

@PAFMO - so does Scotland not have their own version of English? I thought they did but being neither Scottish (or British for that matter) nor a linguist, there is a reasonable likelihood of me being wrong

However, posters were referring to UK English rather than British English. If they had said British English I would not have assumed their attitude was so insular as it is a normal term that I'm familiar with. However, I am not clear on how it is defined. It definitely excludes Hiberno-english as that is a recognised variant of English but beyond that I don't know.

Surely if British English is the English used in Britain then any of the regional variants are part of British English? Lots of British posters have stated that gotten is normal in their dialect do surely then it is part of British English?

The “gotten defenders” use the same arguments every time on these threads - it’s regional, it’s old English etc

Do you have any reason to think the 'arguements' have changed since the last time? Fwiw, the people that have an issue with gotten, also use the same single argument against it each time - at least we have more than one 😂

@WinniePig You are ill-informed. Gotten is the original British English. It pre-dates American usage. Americans are, hence, correct to use it, and British/UK people should be using it too. You should have researched before writing your thread.

@WinniePig Those that use gotten are using the CORRECT British English.