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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Gotten

311 replies

WinniePig · 18/03/2022 07:33

I’ve noticed many Americans using the term “gotten” and assumed it’s American English. Fine. But it’s not a word I would associate with good grammar on this side of the pond. Anyway, I’ve read a number of threads on here recently where the OP has written “gotten” in their original post (and each time I see it I shudder). Even worse…the dodgy verb crops up in this news article on the BBC (third para from end). The BBC (holds head in hands).

www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-latin-america-60789542

AIBU to despair at how this horrible little verb is infecting the English language…

OP posts:
RashofBees · 18/03/2022 11:41

@SalsaLove - I can’t speak for the people you’ve met, but I’m a total language nerd. I love the infinite variety of language in general and the English language in particular. I do not dislike US English and I did not dislike the US. I could listen to someone speaking in certain flavours of southern American English in particular all day long. As mentioned above, I also lived in the US and have my own personal Americanisms that I won’t be giving up as they’re part of my history. (Renaissance! First heard as opposed to seen written in connection with that very American thing, the Renaissance fair.)

I’m passionate about this subject, and it makes me sad that we’re losing difference, whether that is in regional dialects or at a national or global level. I remember being told on the first day of a TEFL teaching course that there is a theory that the world was moving towards just one language and being utterly dismayed.

You might think that I personally am dog whistling (though I’m not sure why on the basis of my posts), but I can’t see why you think it’s impossible that someone could feel this way? Can you not imagine that some people may feel a sense of loss at a world where linguistic differences are flattened? Is it not sad when minority languages are lost? Did you believe me when I said I thought it a shame that Portuguese spelling changed? Would you believe me if I said I thought it was concerning that Cantonese is thought to be under threat?

Btw, one of the great pleasures of that long-ago TEFL course was discovering among the trainees, who came from all over, the different English words we had for the same concepts. This included Americans finding out that other Americans might use some unheard-of term for an everyday object. Who doesn’t love this stuff?

thecatsthecats · 18/03/2022 11:42

I find that it's only really poor communicators who rely on grammar to understand meaning anyway.

If your sentence depends on stringently applying 19th century grammar guidance to be correctly understood, then you need to start again.

And all guidance is just that - guidance.

Language is expressive, and the more words we have, the better. Horrid, gotten etc - welcome in my book.

MurderAtTheBeautyPageant · 18/03/2022 11:42

She also says "amn't I" which I very very rarely hear and someone on another thread wrote it today!

Is she Irish? Amn't is commonly used there.

DropYourSword · 18/03/2022 11:44

@MurderAtTheBeautyPageant

She also says "amn't I" which I very very rarely hear and someone on another thread wrote it today!

Is she Irish? Amn't is commonly used there.

Scottish! I think it's only ever her I've heard say it.
halfsiesonapotnoodle · 18/03/2022 11:45

Loathe it. Yanbu.

SucculentChalice · 18/03/2022 11:47

[quote RashofBees]@SalsaLove - I can’t speak for the people you’ve met, but I’m a total language nerd. I love the infinite variety of language in general and the English language in particular. I do not dislike US English and I did not dislike the US. I could listen to someone speaking in certain flavours of southern American English in particular all day long. As mentioned above, I also lived in the US and have my own personal Americanisms that I won’t be giving up as they’re part of my history. (Renaissance! First heard as opposed to seen written in connection with that very American thing, the Renaissance fair.)

I’m passionate about this subject, and it makes me sad that we’re losing difference, whether that is in regional dialects or at a national or global level. I remember being told on the first day of a TEFL teaching course that there is a theory that the world was moving towards just one language and being utterly dismayed.

You might think that I personally am dog whistling (though I’m not sure why on the basis of my posts), but I can’t see why you think it’s impossible that someone could feel this way? Can you not imagine that some people may feel a sense of loss at a world where linguistic differences are flattened? Is it not sad when minority languages are lost? Did you believe me when I said I thought it a shame that Portuguese spelling changed? Would you believe me if I said I thought it was concerning that Cantonese is thought to be under threat?

Btw, one of the great pleasures of that long-ago TEFL course was discovering among the trainees, who came from all over, the different English words we had for the same concepts. This included Americans finding out that other Americans might use some unheard-of term for an everyday object. Who doesn’t love this stuff?[/quote]
I agree that its sad to lose language, and I'm also very fond of dialects (because they are often more grammatically correct!). That said, although we have lost uncounted languages across the world, certain peoples would all originally have spoken the same language in a broad area, and then developed more languages. Which is why modern German isn't the same language as modern English, etc..

My other pet hate is having my correct, native English "corrected" by non-native English speakers who have learned a certain usage in a book or off social media. I have for example been told by non-native English speakers that "wot", "gonna" "wanna" and "coulda" are correct words and that I should learn them. Or that compounds such as "pig-meat" are correct. And then theres "dear". In some parts of the UK, you can call any age of woman "dear" and not be rude and insinuating that she is elderly. Not here. Its very rude. Yet those grafters on social media sending you random pms from wherever they are in the world invariably call you "dear". Grin

IsFuzzyBeagMise · 18/03/2022 11:49

How do ye feel about 'I was sat'?

I don't use it, but I see it written on these boards quite often.

Lurking9to5 · 18/03/2022 11:49

Amn't I? Is correct in ireland. When i went to england i assimilated but aren't i sounds so silly to me !

IsFuzzyBeagMise · 18/03/2022 11:50

@Lurking9to5

Amn't I? Is correct in ireland. When i went to england i assimilated but aren't i sounds so silly to me !
I don't say it, but I have heard it.
SucculentChalice · 18/03/2022 11:53

@IsFuzzyBeagMise

How do ye feel about 'I was sat'?

I don't use it, but I see it written on these boards quite often.

Love it! Because its clearly a remnant of older English usage preserved in its correct grammatical form. A lot of northern English dialects are very grammatically pure.

Not like mistaking the present and past tenses when using "gotten"...

IsFuzzyBeagMise · 18/03/2022 11:56

I'm curious. How do people use 'gotten' in the present tense without the auxiliary verb? Do they just drop the 'have'?

I was sat... interesting. I didn't know that.

Alonelonelylonersbadidea · 18/03/2022 11:58

I say amn't I! Love it.
I suppose in saying it though I am not necessarily being heard- the right way.

MonkeyPuddle · 18/03/2022 11:59

I would use ‘I was sat’ it’s feels like a very natural thing for me to say, ‘I was sat on the bus’

MurderAtTheBeautyPageant · 18/03/2022 12:06

'I was sat' is such an ungainly phrase. So clunky. But if people like it they should use it.

IsFuzzyBeagMise · 18/03/2022 12:07

@MonkeyPuddle

I would use ‘I was sat’ it’s feels like a very natural thing for me to say, ‘I was sat on the bus’
For me, it's 'I was sitting'.

Interesting, the differences in regional English dialects!

StickyStickyStickStickSong · 18/03/2022 12:12

I think...
There's too much shit happening in the world to be fretting over people using the word "gotten" 🤦🏼‍♀️

ClinkeyMonkey · 18/03/2022 12:14

'I was sat' isn't used here in NI, but I appreciate it's commonly used elsewhere. It does sound 'wrong' to my ears. 'I was sitting' is the phrase I was taught. 'I was sat' used to get on my nerves, especially when someone on a knitting forum (all language experts there of course!) corrected my use of 'I was sitting' (sitting knittingGrinGrin) but I'm used to hearing it now and have decided, in my obviously very very important opinion, that it is acceptable.

thepeopleversuswork · 18/03/2022 12:18

@WhatdoImean

YABU

Languages evolve - they take in elements from other languages, and change and shift over time ("Marry, lady, 'tis so"). It is natural for new words to be incorporated and have their usage change.

I am willing to bet, there were some Greek purists complaining about the "latinisation" of Greek when the Roman empire was around...

This
RashofBees · 18/03/2022 12:18

@SucculentChalice - you’re right. It’s not all doom and gloom. Apparently, duolingo is doing a lot to raise knowledge of endangered languages, for example, and multicultural London English is bringing a lot of new words and influences from around the world into the mainstream.

I just got a bit het up being accused of anti-Americanism. When I returned to the UK I had a meeting with my parents and my new school to work out which sets and subjects I should do, having been out of the British system for years. The teachers we met were smugly convinced that I would be below the equivalent levels in their school, and they were wrong. My school in the US taught debate and public speaking, had us broadcasting on our own TV news every lunchtime and had loads of extracurricular activities, unlike the dry curriculum on offer back home. Grammar was also taught in the US, and that was conspicuous by its absence in the 90s when I was at school here. So I know very well the reflex to assume Americans are ignorant and culturally inferior and I know it to be thoroughly, well, ignorant. I have challenged this smugness and superiority whenever I’ve encountered it, so to be accused of it myself does feel rather unjust.

thepeopleversuswork · 18/03/2022 12:20

@IsFuzzyBeagMise

How do ye feel about 'I was sat'?

I don't use it, but I see it written on these boards quite often.

I've always wondered about this as loads of people say this.

Its grammatically incorrect but seems so ubiquitous its almost become correct.

ClinkeyMonkey · 18/03/2022 12:22

@StickyStickyStickStickSong

I think... There's too much shit happening in the world to be fretting over people using the word "gotten" 🤦🏼‍♀️
Oops! I forgot. We must only talk about the war in Ukraine. I found myself asking DP how many sausages he wanted for dinner (tea? supper?) yesterday, then realised there were more important things happening in the world. Especially when he said he wanted four. The bastard.
StickyStickyStickStickSong · 18/03/2022 12:25

🤣🤣🤣

Infinitemoon · 18/03/2022 12:29

I like using gotten. It makes sentences flow. I woulsnsay it has always been in use tbh.

Infinitemoon · 18/03/2022 12:30

*would say

TheKeatingFive · 18/03/2022 12:31

How embarrassing OP. It's been in usage for hundreds of years.