Gotten

[WinniePig]

I’ve noticed many Americans using the term “gotten” and assumed it’s American English. Fine. But it’s not a word I would associate with good grammar on this side of the pond. Anyway, I’ve read a number of threads on here recently where the OP has written “gotten” in their original post (and each time I see it I shudder). Even worse…the dodgy verb crops up in this news article on the BBC (third para from end). The BBC (holds head in hands).

www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-latin-america-60789542

AIBU to despair at how this horrible little verb is infecting the English language…

[quote Zilla1]@SalsaLove
they dislike and mock us. Shameful behaviour.

Confusing the part for the whole?

And though I don't agree with the OP, it appears at first glance that it's the importation of the usage rather than criticising that usage in its own setting that many PPs don't like.

Other than that, take the thread to be criticising Americans.[/quote]
No confusion here. I’ve lived here long enough to know.

@eandz13

I say gotten, I don't actually know where I've picked it up, it just sounds 'proper' in my head! I didn't realise it was an Americanism either, I hate Americanisms Will work on it now I've read this thread!

Keep it. It's grand

@SartresSoul

Hate it but I’m an English teacher so not a fan of Americanism’s in general. They’re creeping into our lingo so much they will eventually take over. See Mother’s Day and Santa Claus as prime examples.

oh dear.

Oh. Dear.

Oh Dear.

Three things in the post that make me wince.

[quote Sarahcoggles]@ClinkeyMonkey the word “kid”, meaning children, has a Norse origin, and has been in use in the English language since the 16th century. So it’s not an Americanism, which is what I mainly object to.[/quote]
It seems somewhat hypocritical to me to be happy with the use of 'kid' which, despite its origins, was adopted and popularised by Americans and subsequently imported to the UK and yet be unhappy with, say, 'kindergarten', which is clearly German in origin and adopted by Americans. If, in theory, it starts to replace 'nursery' or 'pre school', we'll all be saying it and only a few sad people longing for the language of yesteryear will complain.

I hate everything about the word "gotten", but particularly when the stating-the-obvious types pop up to point out for the trillioneth time that its an American older form of English.

Yes, but Americans use it correctly as the past tense that it always was here before language moved on and used the shortened version "got" which doesn't require the auxilliary verb (usually "have") for it to make sense!

Then someone else will pop up and say its a Scottish word, which will confuse virtually every Scot, until some northern English people pop up and say they use it in their area.

We all know its an attempt to appear trendy by being more American. Modern English stopped using 6 letters plus an auxilliary verb hundreds of years ago. American English has presumably preserved it because what became the US had a variety of languages spoken before English became dominant, including Dutch, French and some indigenous languages, so that is why the more formal past tense was preserved.

What I don't understand in American English is "it fit me". Surely "it fitted me" or "it fits me" is correct. Where did that one come from?

Then someone else will pop up and say its a Scottish word, which will confuse virtually every Scot, until some northern English people pop up and say they use it in their area.

It isn't confusing me. It's widely used in my part of Scotland. Some other Scottish posters have said the same.

@SalsaLove - sorry, but you can’t tar everyone with that brush. I was a little sad when I read that the official spelling of many European Portuguese words had been updated, making it more similar to Brazilian. I’m also the kind of person who will sign any petition going to stop old buildings (even quite ugly ones if I’m being honest with myself) from being demolished.

Sad, as one poster has it? Guilty. But I don’t accept the charge of anti-Americanism!

@Thewindwhispers

It’s Old English (from Old Norse). It’s used in the King James Bible (1611). It later fell out of use in England except in phrases like “ill-gotten gains” and “Jesus was begotten, not made” but I don’t have a problrm with it being revived here, I think it’s a fun word. I like most Old English words though. I’d love to being back some of the letters that fell out of our alphabet, like the letter “thorn” which obviously my keyboard won’t write but was a single letter for the sound th.

It fell out of use because it requires an auxilliary verb as all other Germanic/ON origin languages to to give it the correct tense, OR it requires a prefix or a suffix. Which is why we still have "forgotten", and to a lesser extent "begotten".

And because those languages weren't influenced by Norman French, they still preserve the word order which requires the verb to have a prefix attached put at the end of the sentence.

@SartresSoul

Hate it but I’m an English teacher so not a fan of Americanism’s in general. They’re creeping into our lingo so much they will eventually take over. See Mother’s Day and Santa Claus as prime examples.

Please tell me you teach your pupils the correct use of apostrophes???

Also, it’s Santa Claus in Ireland.

Gotten is used in Ireland. Perhaps if the English hadn’t forced their language on us, they wouldn’t be complaining about Hiberno-English on Mumsnet hundreds of years later.

Did all the people on here who say “gotten” start saying it after reading Shakespeare, and out of a desire to resurrect old English?
Or did they watch too much Netflix in lockdown?

Also, it’s Santa Claus in Ireland.

Also in Scotland.

@HoldingTheDoor

Then someone else will pop up and say its a Scottish word, which will confuse virtually every Scot, until some northern English people pop up and say they use it in their area.

It isn't confusing me. It's widely used in my part of Scotland. Some other Scottish posters have said the same.

Where though? I'd be interested to hear whether its in areas which have mainly been affected by mass immigration from other parts of the UK due to the effects of the Industrial Revolution or whether its from some other influence. Never heard it anywhere on the east coast.

@SalsaLove I can't comment on your lived experience 'that whole' of 'The English despise and mock us' so I'll have no further comment.

@SucculentChalice Used in parts of Yorkshire as I suspect other language persisting from Norse influences.

[quote RashofBees]@SalsaLove - sorry, but you can’t tar everyone with that brush. I was a little sad when I read that the official spelling of many European Portuguese words had been updated, making it more similar to Brazilian. I’m also the kind of person who will sign any petition going to stop old buildings (even quite ugly ones if I’m being honest with myself) from being demolished.

Sad, as one poster has it? Guilty. But I don’t accept the charge of anti-Americanism![/quote]
I don’t care if you accept it or not. My experience is completely valid, no matter if you “accept” it.

[quote Zilla1]@SalsaLove I can't comment on your lived experience 'that whole' of 'The English despise and mock us' so I'll have no further comment.[/quote]
Thank you.

Where though? I'd be interested to hear whether its in areas which have mainly been affected by mass immigration from other parts of the UK due to the effects of the Industrial Revolution or whether its from some other influence. Never heard it anywhere on the east coast.

I'm originally from Glasgow and live just outside of it. I hear it regularly and I also use it occasionally.

We don't say "Ken'" here either but I know that it exists and that other parts of Scotland do use it. Just because it isn't in use in your area, it doesn't mean that it isn't in use elsewhere.

@Franca123

YABU. I would never write it as it's poor English but I would definitely say it and I'm not sure it's not been said here. I'm sure where I grew up it was standard spoken English. Doesn't sound American to me at all.

Is forgotten also poor English? It's used in exactly the same way...

WeCouldBeSparrows Is forgotten also poor English? It's used in exactly the same way...

I have forgotten (singular past tense) - correct
I forgot (singular present tense) -correct
We forget (plural present tense) - correct
We forgot (plural past tense) - correct

I got (singular present tense) - correct
I have gotten (singular past tense) - correct
I've gotten (singular abbreviated past tense) - correct
We have gotten (plural past tense) - correct
I've gotten used in the English-imported-wrongly-from-American-English way to mean in the present tense - incorrect

Did all the people on here who say “gotten” start saying it after reading Shakespeare, and out of a desire to resurrect old English?

Nope. I started saying it years before I read any Shakespeare. Because it's part of the language I grew up with, 40-odd years ago. Couldn't give a crap about using old English.

@SalsaLove So your experience tells you that because I am not keen on certain - not all - usage of the word gotten, it’s because I as an individual am anti-American? I don’t accept that because it’s bollocks.

We’ve exported parts of British English around the world, and in return over the centuries we’ve adopted various bits of language and grammar from all the other cultures we’ve come into contact with.

There is a peculiar snobbishness or fear about British English adopting what people see as Americanisms but cross pollination of language is just a given.

Instead of sailors returning from distant shores with new expressions that work there way into general usage we now hear them more directly from (oh my god) watching Netflix and the like!

So 'I've forgotten what I came in here for' is also incorrect? Then why aren't people up in arms about that?

@PrettyVacancy

It gives me a clue to the nature of the person using the word. That’s all I’m saying …

Making a statement like that certainly gives me a clue as to the type of person you are...

@WeCouldBeSpearows

So 'I've forgotten what I came in here for' is also incorrect? Then why aren't people up in arms about that?

Its to do with the way English usage has changed and has been influenced or part influenced by non-Germanic languages.

So originally it would have been something like "What I came in here for I have forgotten" with the prefix word at the end.

What I find really interesting, (although very pedantic) is that rhoticity in English (not pronouncing the "R") only became common over the whole of England quite recently and was heavily influenced by the invention of tv and radio (I believe).