Gotten

[WinniePig]

I’ve noticed many Americans using the term “gotten” and assumed it’s American English. Fine. But it’s not a word I would associate with good grammar on this side of the pond. Anyway, I’ve read a number of threads on here recently where the OP has written “gotten” in their original post (and each time I see it I shudder). Even worse…the dodgy verb crops up in this news article on the BBC (third para from end). The BBC (holds head in hands).

www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-latin-america-60789542

AIBU to despair at how this horrible little verb is infecting the English language…

@GETTINGLIKEMYMOTHER Am unsure but I don't think it ever stopped -

"Baseball, like many popular sports of today, originated in England. The first mention of it was in 1755, when it was called “base ball.” it was a long time after that though before it became a codified sport. The traditional game of British baseball is played to this day in Wales and North-west England, but only on an amateur level and without any significant spectator participation."

It’s Old English (from Old Norse). It’s used in the King James Bible (1611). It later fell out of use in England except in phrases like “ill-gotten gains” and “Jesus was begotten, not made” but I don’t have a problrm with it being revived here, I think it’s a fun word. I like most Old English words though. I’d love to being back some of the letters that fell out of our alphabet, like the letter “thorn” which obviously my keyboard won’t write but was a single letter for the sound th.

Did all the people on here who say “gotten” start saying it after reading Shakespeare, and out of a desire to resurrect old English?
Or did they watch too much Netflix in lockdown?
If it’s the former, then I’ll accept that.
If it’s the latter then it makes me cringe.
Don’t people want to be British any more? Does everyone want to be American?

I think it’s sad that as a nation we’re choosing to lose our words. I expect that in 50 years it’ll be gotten, mom, kindergarten, sidewalk, diaper and so on. And I think it’s a shame. Why do we need to turn into Americans?

@Catlover77

It annoys me so much. I would never write it or say it.

Because it's not part of your dialect.

Even if it was a pure Americanism, what's the problem with that? The hatred of all things American is a very ugly side to MN and must be very unpleasant for American users to read.

I don’t hate all things American. I lived there as a child and it was probably the happiest part of my life. But I find the growing homogeneity of language sad. We’ve largely lost dialect in the UK, and regional accent differences are lessening too. There was a study done recently that showed people around manchester and Leeds have increasingly similar accents, so it’s far from just a US thing. These are natural changes, and inevitable in a world that is getting more connected, but it doesn’t mean I can’t have an emotional response to it. And my response is largely the same as when I read an article about 50% of insect species becoming extinct in the last 20 years (figures made up) or think about how new buildings look similar regardless of where in the world they’re built.

@Sarahcoggles

YANBU, I really hate gotten. And people on here will go on about old English, and language evolving etc etc, but actually we all know it’s only become fashionable because of the trend of adopting Americanisms. Kids watch American stuff on YouTube and tiktok, and pick up the words. And then adults adopt it to try and look cool. And sadly, it gradually becomes accepted. But it will make me wince to my dying day!

Maybe you'll get used to it. A few years ago, for example, a kid was a young goat, but here you are happily using it in the plural form to replace the word 'children'.

There’s so much snobbishness on threads like these. I use ‘gotten’ and ‘off of’ it’s nothing to do with Americanisms sneaking into my language. It’s just how I speak, how I’ve always spoken. I’ve got a broad East Yorkshire (Hull) accent.
Yeah, in some cases it might be Americanisation but in others, like mine, it’s just dialect.

like the letter “thorn” which obviously my keyboard won’t write but was a single letter for the sound th

It will! (just hold down 't') still used in Icelandic.

þÞ

Did all the people on here who say “gotten” start saying it after reading Shakespeare, and out of a desire to resurrect old English?

I've said it my entire life because I'm Northumbrian and it's part of our dialect.

PS: if the word "mom" grates on you, you might be shocked to learn that Birmingham exists.

Can I just add that an American would never dream criticising the way another native speaker uses the language. We find it interesting, but then we tend to love the English while not realising that they dislike and mock us. Shameful behaviour.

I have some American friends, now located in the UK, and they absolutely love hearing us speak. One of them will think nothing of (politely) asking people where their accent is from if they hear an interesting sounding one while out and about. She will also ask me to repeat certain words that she hasn't heard before and will ask what they mean.

@ClinkeyMonkey the word “kid”, meaning children, has a Norse origin, and has been in use in the English language since the 16th century. So it’s not an Americanism, which is what I mainly object to.

@Hospedia

Did all the people on here who say “gotten” start saying it after reading Shakespeare, and out of a desire to resurrect old English?

I've said it my entire life because I'm Northumbrian and it's part of our dialect.

PS: if the word "mom" grates on you, you might be shocked to learn that Birmingham exists.

I have no problem with people saying whatever they like if it’s part of their local dialect and they’ve used it all their life. The ones that grate on me are the ones who said “got” until the last couple of years, then for some inexplicable reason decided to say “gotten”.

@SalsaLove
they dislike and mock us. Shameful behaviour.

Confusing the part for the whole?

And though I don't agree with the OP, it appears at first glance that it's the importation of the usage rather than criticising that usage in its own setting that many PPs don't like.

Other than that, take the thread to be criticising Americans.

I'm always a bit baffled at the regular appearance of threads along the lines of 'when did English people start referring to their darling mater by the awful Americanisation of 'mom?

I'm not English, I've never lived in England, and yet I've known for years that Mom is a West Midlands thing. But it's seemingly still to filter through to many of their countrymen and women. Points to insularity and a lack of interest in anything that happens beyond their particular suburb/city/village boundaries.

@Hospedia

I have some American friends, now located in the UK, and they absolutely love hearing us speak. One of them will think nothing of (politely) asking people where their accent is from if they hear an interesting sounding one while out and about. She will also ask me to repeat certain words that she hasn't heard before and will ask what they mean.

Well I hope she enjoys it while she can, because in a few years time there won’t be any English words left, it’ll all be American-speak!

I have no problem with people saying whatever they like if it’s part of their local dialect and they’ve used it all their life. The ones that grate on me are the ones who said “got” until the last couple of years, then for some inexplicable reason decided to say “gotten”.

How do you know? I see people criticising its use on here all the time when they've no idea where a poster comes from. Have you really tracked whether all of your friends and family use the word gotten and when the make the change?

And has your language never changed? Surely you notice sometimes you're using a word or phrase all the time when you never used to before. Are your changing habits ok but other people's aren't?

@Sarahcoggles

Did all the people on here who say “gotten” start saying it after reading Shakespeare, and out of a desire to resurrect old English? Or did they watch too much Netflix in lockdown? If it’s the former, then I’ll accept that. If it’s the latter then it makes me cringe. Don’t people want to be British any more? Does everyone want to be American? I think it’s sad that as a nation we’re choosing to lose our words. I expect that in 50 years it’ll be gotten, mom, kindergarten, sidewalk, diaper and so on. And I think it’s a shame. Why do we need to turn into Americans?

I attended a U.K. kindergarten in the 1950s. I don’t think of it as an American import, though you don’t often hear the word now. In any case it’s of German origin.

The import I like least is ‘dumb’ meaning stupid, as opposed to ‘unable to speak’. (Also a German import into American - German ‘dumm’ = stupid.)

A novel of mine went into an American edition. At one point (a dog was a major part of the story) I had mentioned ‘dumb animals’. The US copy editor wrote in the margin, ‘Dogs are not stupid!’ 😩

Can’t remember whether I reworded or just deleted that bit.

I dare say plenty of Brits would be unaware of the other meaning now.

Well I hope she enjoys it while she can, because in a few years time there won’t be any English words left, it’ll all be American-speak!

How very Little England that attitude is. Of course there'll be English words left.

I agree, grammar has gotten worse

sidewalk

We have that too here. A lot of houses locally have their front door down the side as that's how the village was built way back when. You down "down the side walk" to get to the front door (aka, the side path)

Hate it but I’m an English teacher so not a fan of Americanism’s in general. They’re creeping into our lingo so much they will eventually take over. See Mother’s Day and Santa Claus as prime examples.

@SartresSoul

Hate it but I’m an English teacher so not a fan of Americanism’s in general. They’re creeping into our lingo so much they will eventually take over. See Mother’s Day and Santa Claus as prime examples.

Americanism's?

You sure about that apostrophe?

Hate it but I’m an English teacher so not a fan of Americanism’s in general

Some parts of the UK never stopped using gotten. I've used that word all my life, I even remember my great grandmother using it.

I say gotten, I don't actually know where I've picked it up, it just sounds 'proper' in my head! I didn't realise it was an Americanism either, I hate Americanisms
Will work on it now I've read this thread!