Meet the Other Phone. Flexible and made to last.

Meet the Other Phone.
Flexible and made to last.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think most women would prefer to be on a single-sex ward as hospital in patients?

323 replies

Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g · 17/03/2022 15:19

This was debated in the House of Lords in the early hours today.

I'm not up to speed on this so I don't know how many single-sex wards there are in the NHS. I know it's been promised again and again but for various reasons, mostly I expect to do with money, it doesn't always happen. Now there's the additional headache of trans-identifying patients to factor in, many of whom won't have made many (or any) changes to their bodies.

My hunch is that most of us (male and female), given the choice, would prefer to be in a single-sex ward when stuck in bed with a flimsy gown on and all sorts of undignified and painful things going on with our bodies.

Am I right?

YABU - who cares, mixed sex is fine
YANBU - yes, I would prefer hospital wards to be single-sex

OP posts:
Thread gallery
6
DdraigGoch · 18/03/2022 15:45

I have experience of trans too... (don't quote me on the official guide lines though). Realistically the nurses would put the trans woman in the bay with wome because firstly that's what they want and secondly (rightly or wrongly) nurses do not have time to sort out a trans male in a male bay... can you imagine the mens reaction..... there's no easy answers

I'm a man. Go on, what are you imagining my reaction will be to one of the other male patients in the ward wearing a wig and pink pyjamas?

These policies have already resulted in at least one rape. Quite apart from the sexual assaults described on the thread above committed by other males (the ones in the blue pyjamas). Every effort should be made to have separate accommodation for male and female patients. Occasionally there is a crisis where it becomes necessary to mix, but this should be exceptional. Hospitals ought to give consideration to making sure that wards are better supervised when this happens. Putting a male on a female ward just because they asked to be put there is ludicrous.

Furthermore visitors (in general, but the male ones in particular) should only be present on public wards during official visiting hours, not overnight.

MyrtlethePurpleTurtle · 18/03/2022 15:47

@SevenWaystoLeave

Worth remembering even where there are single sex wards, that only applies to the patients - there will still be male members of staff and visitors around. Nowhere in a hospital is going to be exclusively female only.
Good point
PurgatoryOfPotholes · 18/03/2022 15:56

Ridiculous point. Wards have limited visiting hours. The husband of the patient opposite is not going to be there at 3am, or present during the ward round, overhearing me as I describe whether I'm still having problems evacuating my bowels.

That's the entire point.

And no, a male doctor is not the same thing as my 19 year old daughter sleeping in the next bed to Derek, 43, who keeps staring at her breasts.

BOOTS52 · 18/03/2022 17:23

Hi Annette sorry on meds for sinus infection so got it all mixed up. I should have said Trans women who still have a penis.

GreMay1 · 18/03/2022 17:55

@DdraigGoch you may well be a man. But you don't account for the majority of males. I gave you my actual own personal experience of working within a hospital. Every efforts are made to not mix BAYS. Read the full thread... it is not possible how many more time to have single sex wards.

There's tones of issues in hospitals at the minute covid has caused a huge huge backlogue of many things.

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 18/03/2022 18:37

If male patients object to male transitioners on the men's wards, the NHS can treat the male patients like it treats female patients expressing the slightest amount of discomfort about male transitioners on the women's ward: by discharging the objecting male patients.

PurpleCarpets · 18/03/2022 18:54

[quote GreMay1]@DdraigGoch you may well be a man. But you don't account for the majority of males. I gave you my actual own personal experience of working within a hospital. Every efforts are made to not mix BAYS. Read the full thread... it is not possible how many more time to have single sex wards.

There's tones of issues in hospitals at the minute covid has caused a huge huge backlogue of many things.[/quote]
I'm quite surprised to see a man on here making such a big song and dance about it. There are much bigger fish to fry in the NHS then guaranteeing men their own special places. It would be a big waste of resources that could be better spent on actually making people better.

DdraigGoch · 18/03/2022 19:08

[quote GreMay1]@DdraigGoch you may well be a man. But you don't account for the majority of males. I gave you my actual own personal experience of working within a hospital. Every efforts are made to not mix BAYS. Read the full thread... it is not possible how many more time to have single sex wards.

There's tones of issues in hospitals at the minute covid has caused a huge huge backlogue of many things.[/quote]
I'm well aware of the pressure on the NHS, thanks. But there is no justification whatsoever for putting a male on a female ward just because they asked for it. Needs must in a crisis, but hospitals have a duty of care to their patients.

I hope that the poor rape victim sues the trust for every last penny, after what she has been put through in the last year - not just the attack itself, but the lying and the gaslighting which followed to prolong her ordeal.

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 18/03/2022 19:08

He's arguing for guaranteeing women their own space.

And frankly, I think preventing the rape of female patients by male patients is the bare minimum.

I'm reminded of this quote from

academic.oup.com/shm/article/31/4/732/5166746?login=false

In 1992, the mental health charity MIND published a policy paper titledStress on Women, which was part of a nationwide campaign to end sexual harassment and abuse in mental health settings.Mixed-sex wards came in for particular criticism. Several initiatives had been militating against them in both general and psychiatric hospitals since the late 1970s, only 20 years after the practice had begun. One woman recounted:

I and a number of other women I know have had very bad experiences on mixed wards. A friend of mine was raped and I was harassed to death by men and the staff never intervened. The average male response was ‘It’s all your fault’. You only had to say ‘good morning’ and you were told this was a come on. The staff think women being there will make the men behave better and that if men behave badly it’s the fault of women. … Because of this appalling state of affairs, I couldn’t stay in hospital. Now when I feel very depressed, I stay with a friend. The situation in the hospital was so awful, I’d never go back there—you can’t be ill in peace.

VampireMoney · 18/03/2022 19:09

I honestly couldn't care less if I'm on a mixed sex ward.

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 18/03/2022 19:14

The Irish Times, 11th February 2020

article

A judge has criticised a hospital for putting a 17-year-old girl with serious injuries in a mixed ward where she was sexually assaulted by a man (63) with a history of psychiatric problems.

Judge Seán Ó Donnabháin said serious questions had to be asked of Cork University Hospital management over the way they operated their ward system after hearing how Andrew O’Donovan sexually assaulted the teenager.

“This is a very, very troubling case where you have two patients presenting to Cork University Hospital and were placed side by side in a mixed ward and one sexually assaulted the other in the late night/early morning,” he said.

“You have to question the management of the ward system that allowed this young girl to be placed in close proximity to a man who was known to have a history of schizophrenic tendencies and a long psychiatric history.”

Judge Ó Donnabháin made his comments after O’Donovan, of Butlersgift, Drimoleague, Co Cork pleaded guilty at Cork Circuit Criminal Court to sexually assaulting the girl in CUH on May 14th, 2018.

Det GardaCaroline Keoghof the Cork Protective Services Unit told how the girl was in the four bed ward with three adult men when O’Donovan appeared in a gap in the curtains around her bed at around 5am.

He came inside the curtain and began talking to her before he started stroking her arm and then placed his hand on breast and touched her vagina through the sheet and her pyjamas.

He then tried to kiss her but she moved her face to one side as he asked her out for dinner and invited her to go to the cinema before he moved away and returned to his own bed.

Det Garda Keogh said the girl was unable to use the alert bell because of her injuries but nursing staff were alerted when they noticed O’Donovan’s heart started racing and his heart monitor reached elevated levels.

In her victim impact statement, the teenager said an accident had left her completely immobilised but she thought she was safe in hospital.

“The hospital placed me into a separate room but despite being separated from the defendant, I was very fearful and distressed, knowing that I was in the same building as him and therefore, I wanted to go home.”

She told how she was so fearful the following night that her father had to sleep in a chair beside her bed in the hospital and that since the incident she had developed a fear of older men and coming into contact with them on her own.

The assault affected her study for her Leaving Cert as she suffered anxiety and flashbacks and she could not concentrate on school and she did not get the points she needed for her chosen course even though it was within her ability.

“This has changed my whole career path in life. During the Leaving Cert exam, the incident was headlined on the papers which led to my friends finding out about it, therefore increasing my anxiety,” she said.

The teenager, who said she saw no remorse in O’Donovan when he appeared in court, said she hoped the age for teenagers to be treated as paediatric patients would be raised from 16 to 18 as a result of “this horrible situation”.

O’Donovan failed to show up for sentencing on Tuesday afternoon but the judge said it was clear to him from seeing him at earlier court appearances that he had “limitations”.

Det Garda Keogh agreed that O’Donovan, whose wife died just before Christmas, had limitations and she confirmed that he had no previous convictions and lived a fairly basic existence in a remote rural area.

Continues: www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/judge-criticises-hospital-after-girl-sexually-assaulted-by-man-63-on-ward-1.4170837

lifeturnsonadime · 18/03/2022 19:34

Mum2jenny

Personally I would prefer to get treated on a mixed sec ward rather than wait for a single sex ward, but that’s my choice.
If you want/need specific options, maybe go private!!
The NHS is struggling just now, so ppl need to be aware of this and accept the current practices.

Exactly this. I even known patients ask if they can pay for a private room. It is not the RIU fgs

Except if you are a trans woman because then you get what you want under the Rainbow scheme.

See the problem yet?

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 18/03/2022 19:53

Abstract

With the exception of specialized units, adults have historically been cared for in single-sex hospital wards in the UK. However, over the past two decades, concerns about mixed-sex wards have been reported. Respect and dignity are essential to provide high-quality health care. The issue of whether patients' privacy and dignity are compromised by mixed-sex wards is addressed in this article. Qualitative data were obtained from both nurses and patients on a mixed-sex surgical ward specializing in urology, to obtain individual perspectives relating to factors affecting dignity on the ward. Nurses tried hard to keep bays single-sex but, due to bed shortages, they were under continual pressure to mix the bays. Some patients of both sexes and varied ages perceived that a mixed-sex care environment threatened their dignity. They experienced a lack of privacy, worried about bodily exposure and felt uncomfortable. Nurses used various strategies to reduce patients' discomfort. Mixed sex accommodation is an unacceptable solution to bed shortages.

Baillie L. Mixed-sex wards and patient dignity: nurses and patients perspectives. Br J Nurs. 2008 Oct 23-Nov 12;17(19):1220-5. doi: 10.12968/bjon.2008.17.19.31461. PMID: 18974690. [accessed digitally 18th March 2022]

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/18974690/

Monitaurus · 18/03/2022 21:25

For all those that couldn’t care less, please consider the feelings of those that do care rather than support the men who use this as an opportunity to abuse women. Why do you think that men’s wishes should be a priority?

PurpleCarpets · 18/03/2022 21:48

@Monitaurus

For all those that couldn’t care less, please consider the feelings of those that do care rather than support the men who use this as an opportunity to abuse women. Why do you think that men’s wishes should be a priority?
It's more that healthcare should be the priority.

I'm far more likely to die due to poor care in hospital than I am to be assaulted by other patients. So are you, and so are men for that matter. Single-sex provision imposes constraints, is inefficient and uses resources that I'd rather went on everyone's healthcare.

Mum2jenny · 18/03/2022 21:52

If a person needs medical/ surgical treatment they will be put on a ward that meets their needs.

That is irrespective of sex or gender. Just get over it!!

Ereshkigalangcleg · 18/03/2022 21:58

For all those that couldn’t care less, please consider the feelings of those that do care rather than support the men who use this as an opportunity to abuse women. Why do you think that men’s wishes should be a priority?

Good question.

sunisblinding · 18/03/2022 22:01

@ElPolloLoco

To all the commenters suggesting that it is too difficult or expensive on staff to have strict single sex wards, I think it is a matter of priorities

The NHS are currently investing heavily in the Rainbow Badge scheme. This follows the £millions spent on similar futile initiatives with Stonewall over the years. There are many trusts currently recruiting multiple ‘Diversity & Inclusion’ (or similar) officers on salaries far higher than nursing staff. These schemes have precisely zero clinical benefits.

Many of these ‘Diversity & Inclusion’ projects have had the opposite effect and due to lies and misinformation on the law actually exclude and create division. Trained nurses have been sacked for their views on single sex spaces - another monumental waste of cash. There will also be the court cases for damages from women who have been raped, sexually assaulted or traumatised WHILE IN HOSPITAL due to the policies of placing males on female only wards on their request.

Hospital policy dictates that trans patients take priority in pretty much all respects so their requests for a particular ward are very likely to be honoured first.

So in my view, the money is there to staff and guarantee single sex wards, but there isn’t the will.

Largely thanks to Stonewall creating a climate of fear where speaking out is likely to cost you your job.

This this this.
sunisblinding · 18/03/2022 22:03

@ElPolloLoco

To all the commenters suggesting that it is too difficult or expensive on staff to have strict single sex wards, I think it is a matter of priorities

The NHS are currently investing heavily in the Rainbow Badge scheme. This follows the £millions spent on similar futile initiatives with Stonewall over the years. There are many trusts currently recruiting multiple ‘Diversity & Inclusion’ (or similar) officers on salaries far higher than nursing staff. These schemes have precisely zero clinical benefits.

Many of these ‘Diversity & Inclusion’ projects have had the opposite effect and due to lies and misinformation on the law actually exclude and create division. Trained nurses have been sacked for their views on single sex spaces - another monumental waste of cash. There will also be the court cases for damages from women who have been raped, sexually assaulted or traumatised WHILE IN HOSPITAL due to the policies of placing males on female only wards on their request.

Hospital policy dictates that trans patients take priority in pretty much all respects so their requests for a particular ward are very likely to be honoured first.

So in my view, the money is there to staff and guarantee single sex wards, but there isn’t the will.

Largely thanks to Stonewall creating a climate of fear where speaking out is likely to cost you your job.

= as always women chucked under a bus to appease penis owning men.
sunisblinding · 18/03/2022 22:06

@Calandor

Yes I would rather be on a female only ward. I'd be unsettled to be on a ward with blokes when I'm vulnerable/after surgery.

Im not really bothered about trans women being on female wards. They'd possibly be at risk in male wards and there's not just a separate ward people can go on who don't fit 100% in either sexed ward.

🤯
sunisblinding · 18/03/2022 22:07

@Ereshkigalangcleg

As pp have evidenced, single sex wards not some request that is considered weird and unreasonable by the majority of the population, whatever the issues of actually implementing them. It was a manifesto commitment for decades across parties.
Single sex wards = no penis owners on a woman's ward.
OpheliaThrupps · 18/03/2022 22:09

Oh dear, it's turning into one of those threads Grin

VestofAbsurdity · 18/03/2022 23:02

@Mum2jenny

If a person needs medical/ surgical treatment they will be put on a ward that meets their needs.

That is irrespective of sex or gender. Just get over it!!

So stick all men irrespective of how they identify in the MALE Bays/Wards where they belong don't allow certain 'special' men to be placed in the Female Bays because those 'special' men want to be put there, if they want the treatment they get it whilst being in the MALE Bay/Ward or perhaps they could go Private or request and pay for a single room like some on here are proposing women do, their choice.

Let them put up and shut up if they want the treatment like you are telling women to.

Stop pandering to men's wants and wishes and treating women as sub human inferior beings and denying them their needs and wants.

NHS - stop fucking lying to women and if the NHS don't believe it is a legitimate aim for women to have safety, dignity and privacy then the NHS isn't fit for purpose and shouldn't be raking in tax money from women.

Dinosauratemydaffodils · 19/03/2022 00:11

If a person needs medical/ surgical treatment they will be put on a ward that meets their needs.

That is irrespective of sex or gender. Just get over it!!

I have ptsd. A ward which meets my needs will have no male bodied people on it. I wish I could get over it but so far copious amounts of therapy (paid for by the NHS) has made very little difference.

MyrtlethePurpleTurtle · 19/03/2022 01:24

@Dinosauratemydaffodils - does that mean you are unable to be treated by male healthcare officials / require a companion when being treated by male healthcare professionals