To think most women would prefer to be on a single-sex ward as hospital in patients?

[Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g]

This was debated in the House of Lords in the early hours today.

I'm not up to speed on this so I don't know how many single-sex wards there are in the NHS. I know it's been promised again and again but for various reasons, mostly I expect to do with money, it doesn't always happen. Now there's the additional headache of trans-identifying patients to factor in, many of whom won't have made many (or any) changes to their bodies.

My hunch is that most of us (male and female), given the choice, would prefer to be in a single-sex ward when stuck in bed with a flimsy gown on and all sorts of undignified and painful things going on with our bodies.

Am I right?

YABU - who cares, mixed sex is fine
YANBU - yes, I would prefer hospital wards to be single-sex

@jcyclops

I think most people would prefer to be in a private room.

This

I have never been in a mixed ward, and spent a fair amount of time in hospital in my life.
My first stay on an adult ward I was 17, can't see I would have coped being alone with grown men in the ward!

This evidence to the House of Lords yesterday is pretty appalling.

twitter.com/StoatlyL/status/1504458815353327625?t=qE7wNqi0nKu2_5MMebMFKA&s=19

@Mum2jenny

Personally I would prefer to get treated on a mixed sec ward rather than wait for a single sex ward, but that’s my choice. If you want/need specific options, maybe go private!! The NHS is struggling just now, so ppl need to be aware of this and accept the current practices.

Approximately half of admissions are male and half female. Wards tend to be split into male and female bays so that approximately half of bays are male and half female. Therefore organising patients into single sex bays isn’t overly difficult or complicated no matter how busy the NHS is at the moment. At most a bay might be mixed sex for a few hours now and then, with the occupant having the curtains drawn for privacy, but it shouldn’t be difficult to avoid mixed sex bays. And nobody should have to pay privately to have facilities that should be available under the equalities act.

Offering single sex accommodation is a requirement under the NHS Standard Contract, although the £250 a day fine which was part of the sanctions has been quietly dropped.

@SevenWaystoLeave

Couldn't care less. I spent a hospital stay on a mixed sex ward, it's difficult not having privacy sometimes but that isn't impacted by the gender of the person in the bed next to you, and everyone is in the same boat anyway. If a trans person is in hospital it's because they're sick and vulnerable too. As for what parts they have, how would you even know, you're not actually ever going to see them naked even with the lack of privacy on wards.

Ok, I have been placed on a mixed ward twice in last 30 dd years, either due to lack of available beds or during periods when nhs went to mixed wards.

1. Going to the loo as awful…seats and flaw covered in piss. This as a medical ward and a lot of older people …geriatric as used to be called. I imagine elderly men were struggling with aiming. It was horrendous. I asked once for Someone to clean and was told just to use toilet paper. It was repulsive and I as standing in passing my slippers.
2. Men sitting in dressing gowns with legs apart and no pants or pj on- literally in bed opposite. Could see everything
3. Elderly man with dementia wandering around naked in middle of night. To be fair there was also a lady with dementia in bed next to mine that kept undoing her nightie and removing it. Blokes would have got an eyeful of that too.
4. I went in for day surgery. I as given spinal. They didn’t catheterise me as short op. But I had bad reaction. On day ward they tried to get me to walk to loo when I needed it, and I had no control on my bladder and lost control all over the floor at end of my bed. No curtains. I was so ashamed and humiliated. There were blokes looking at me. Fucking horrible .

The point is that people have bodily functions and mental health issues that put them in vulnerable positions. Just because you are unwell does not mean it is not deeply humiliating and shaming. And distressing. It doesn’t help people get better.

@FixTheBone

Its more complex than just single sex wards....

If you happen to be in hospital for something fairly niche where there's only enough workload or patients to fill a single ward, what happens then?

What if you do manage to get two smaller wards, but, on a given day there happens to be more men, or more women, meaning the patients cant be split evenly...

For me the current situation in most hospitals where there are 4 or 6 bedded bays and some side rooms that allows the male/female allocation to be adjusted depending on need is the only way things are going to function, until such a time when all beds are in individual side rooms.

General medical and general surgical wards.

I wonder if people are confusing wards with bays?

Single sex bays, with single sex toilet facilities adjoining, have been the case for a long time.

A ward consists of many bays, and single rooms, and are often mixed sex, but patients of opposite sexes do not share sleeping or toilet facilities.

Yes.

And I tend in my daily life to have an easier time chatting with men, and more male friends. I find women I don't know more difficult/daunting to make small talk with, no idea why.

But in hospital, I'd really rather not have men sharing a room.

If it is private or double rooms I don't care so much about other rooms in the hall or whatever.

Instinctively I would say single sex.

Have stayed twice - once on a ward and TBH I was befriended several times by other women (sometimes annoyingly). This would be more awkward if it were a man.

The other time was a surgery ward and I really needed to feel safe - single sex helped.

Yes I would prefer a single sex ward though generally there are single sex bays. However three years ago I found myself, severely concussed following an accident, on a mixed sex geriatric ward and it was an eight day humiliating, horrific experience. Thankfully I recovered but have vowed never to go to hospital again if I can avoid it. It would have been bad anyway but being mixed sex definitely made it worse.

@lifeturnsonadime

Realistically the nurses would put the trans woman in the bay with wome because firstly that's what they want

But this completely ignores the rights by law under the Equality Act 2010 for Single Sex spaces and puts the wants of a male in front the of dignity and safety of women.

The easy answer is single sex unless it is absolutely impossible and then to do your best rather than what it is currently doing which is favouring males with trans identities.

It is impossible though. Which part do you fail to understand about mixed wards.

There are no spare empty rooms just sitting there.... just in case someone doesn't take a fancy to whatever is going on in a bay... its the NHS and even private patients end up getting bounced back to the general NHS hospitals.

If its so easy why do you think mixed wards exist?

Patients are woke up in the middle of the night and moved to create capacity. It's catch 22 as you don't want to wake a sleeping patient at night but to create all the same sex bays this is what has to happen.

Yanbu

I'd prefer single sex. As would my dds. Dd15 had to stay in hospital over night a few months ago. I stayed with her. There was also a teenage boy on the ward/Bay as it was paeds and mixed. I have to say it was rather awkward. And I'm sure it was fir the teenage boy too. Neither did anything. Neither spoke to eachother . Hes Obviously not at fault in any way nor was dd. They were just both obviously of an age where it was just awkward. I felt equally bad fir him. The dr was rather loud talking to him. I cant imagine if they'd have been at school together and known each other.

Obviously as both were children he had his mum there as I was there fir dd1. But at 15 there's what, a year or 2 and parents would not really be needed as I expect they'd be on adult wards. The idea of being placed on a.mixed ward and me not being there ...just no. Its not right.

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2022/03/17/hospital-told-police-patient-not-raped-alleged-attacker-transgender/

'The attack took place a year ago and the woman reported it but when officers contacted the hospital, which has not been named, they were told “that there was no male in the hospital, therefore the rape could not have happened”. '

This is a public debate that was done and dusted 30 years ago.

Back in 1997, one of Labour's manifesto policies was single-sex wards. When they were routine, people hated them. The single-sex guidelines did not spring up out of nowhere- successive health secretaries were pushed for them. And for years, every shadow health secretary would go on the attack concerning his/her governmental counterpart's lack of progress towards the goal of eliminating mixed-sex wards.

Stop gaslighting us on the history of Britain, please.

Here's an article from 2018.

The number of patients enduring the humiliation of mixed-sex wards has hit a seven-year high.

More than 2,250 patients were placed on the wards last month, the worst recorded figure since March 2011. Nearly 13,700 people slept on the wards in the past year.

But hospitals have become so overcrowded, they say it is impossible to stick to the pledge.

Labour yesterday accused the Government of abandoning a key manifesto promise and leaving thousands of patients ‘denigrated’.

NHS England figures show there were 2,278 ‘mixed sex breaches’ last month, three times as many as in February 2017. A breach counts as any occasion when a patient is placed on a ward with the opposite sex, not including intensive care, high dependency units or A&E.

Ministers promised to end the so-called ‘wards of shame’ in 2010 following a Daily Mail campaign to expose their indignity.

Labour health spokesman Jonathan Ashworth said: ‘These breaches are a stark indicator of patient care worsening under the Tories. Patients expect dignity and respect when they’re being treated in hospital, but instead they’re being left denigrated on mixed-sex wards.’

He added: ‘We need a full inquiry into the Government’s mishandling of the NHS this winter.’ Successive governments have been promising to eradicate mixed-sex wards for more than 20 years.

Many patients find the wards dehumanising. They often have to share toilets or bathrooms with the opposite sex wearing little more than hospital gowns or night clothes.

The hospital with the highest number of breaches in February was Dartford and Gravesham NHS Trust in Kent with 582.

There were 408 at the Royal Berkshire NHS Trust in Reading and 234 at the Northampton General Hospital

Sarah Scobie, of the Nuffield Trust think-tank, said: ‘Hospitals have increasingly had to rely on workarounds – from cancelling planned operations to using mixed-sex accommodation – to ensure they treat growing numbers of sick and very often frail patients in as safe and timely a manner as possible. This has meant that years of progress in driving down the rates of mixed-sex breaches are at risk.’

Phillippa Hentsch, of NHS Providers, which represents hospitals, said: ‘Ensuring patients’ privacy and dignity is always a priority.

‘These breaches reflect the difficulties trusts and frontline staff face in providing the quality of care patients deserve. Trusts have worked hard over many years to eliminate this problem. It is disappointing to see those gains going into reverse.’

Ruth May, of NHS Improvement, the hospitals regulator, added: ‘NHS staff have been dealing with an increase in emergency admissions of 6.5 per cent compared to the same time last year.

‘Despite this increase and a significant spike in flu and norovirus cases, over two thirds of acute trusts reported zero mixed-sex breaches.’

It comes as a leading doctor warned that the ‘winter pressures’ in the NHS will not let up until Easter at the earliest. Society of Acute Medicine president Dr Nick Scriven said hospitals had been battling a ‘perfect storm’ of cold weather, norovirus and flu.

www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-5520833/NHS-patients-mixed-sex-wards-worst-level-seven-years.html

BBC, 2009

Frustration over mixed-sex wards

The Tories have pledged to invest in single-sex rooms

A health service memo, seen by the BBC, says the government is "rattled" over the "failure" to eradicate mixed-sex wards in English hospitals.

According to the document, leaked to the Tories, Health Secretary Alan Johnson spoke of his frustration that Labour's pledge had not been met.

Ministers are now set to launch a fresh campaign to "all-but-eliminate" mixed-sex accommodation.

A Conservative spokesman called the lack of progress "a scandal".

The memo - written by a senior NHS manager - summarises a meeting which took place earlier this month.

It conveys deep frustration from the health secretary over a failure to deliver on repeated Labour manifesto promises to scrap mixed-sex accommodation.

Mr Johnson is quoted as saying "sane and rational arguments about why it can't be done no longer cut it with me, it's going to happen".

The memo also says that a central capital fund will be established for strategic health authorities to get rid of mixed-sex accommodation alongside a new contractual obligation for hospitals to tackle the problem.

Ongoing problem

At the beginning of January, a freedom of information request from the Conservatives found that 15% of hospital trusts still used at least one open-plan mixed-sex ward.

Others had curtains dividing the sexes, falling short of advice that there should be solid full-height partitions.

Labour pledged to end mixed-sex accommodation in both its 1997 and 2001 manifestos.

By 2006 ministers were claiming this had been achieved in 99% of cases, but patient surveys have since shown this not to be the case.

Under the government's definition of mixed-sex accommodation, patients should be kept in bays divided at the very least by fixed full-height partitions.

Patients should also not be expected to walk past others of the opposite sex to go to washing or toilet facilities.

Intensive care and A&E departments are not included for practical reasons.

Shadow health secretary, Andrew Lansley, said: "This is a stark admission of failure from Labour.

"Frankly it is a scandal that they have done nothing about mixed-sex wards except make repeated empty promises.

"What's worse is that they are only taking action now because Conservatives have exposed their abysmal record and set out real plans for change, with single rooms in hospital for all patients who need them."

Priority

A government source told the BBC that the NHS had not dealt with mixed-sex accommodation as swiftly as it should have but progress had been made.

And a new plan to prioritise and tackle the problem would be announced shortly

It will include a centrally-held fund to enable a six-month push to eliminate mixed-sex accommodation as far as possible.

Nigel Edwards, director of policy at the NHS Confederation, said he was sceptical about how the changes required could be funded.

"Capital funding of this kind would have to be paid back.

"There could also be staffing implications for this type of programme."

Katherine Murphy, director of the Patients Association said she was glad Alan Johnson finally accepts the government has failed time after time to deliver on its promises on mixed sex accommodation.

"Single-sex accommodation is the only way to ensure patient dignity, privacy and safety.

"Successive ministers have made promises for the past 11 years - patients finally deserve action not words."

news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/7845503.stm

Here is Baroness Nicholsons statement in HOL

https://grahamlinehan.substack.com/p/baroness-nicholson-uncovers-a-horrific?r=8zwv3&s=r&utmcampaign=post&utmm_medium=email

The attack took place a year ago and the woman reported it but when officers contacted the hospital, which has not been named, they were told “that there was no male in the hospital, therefore the rape could not have happened”. '

It's absolutely sickening that people would go to these lengths for their ideological beliefs.

Back in 1997, one of Labour's manifesto policies was single-sex wards. When they were routine, people hated them. The single-sex guidelines did not spring up out of nowhere- successive health secretaries were pushed for them. And for years, every shadow health secretary would go on the attack concerning his/her governmental counterpart's lack of progress towards the goal of eliminating mixed-sex wards.

Stop gaslighting us on the history of Britain, please.

Exactly.

@lunar1

Bays should be single sex, not wards.

Having single sex wards could make retaining staff in certain areas incredibly difficult due to the nature of the work.

Some specialities don't even have more than one ward to split patients by sex, it would be a logical nightmare.

Agree with this. Most trusts don't have spare empty wards to sex segregate. Our ward is 2 female bays , 2 male bays with side rooms. It's very difficult for us as we are dementia, so many of our patients wander the ward, depending on their condition at the time, they don't like the feel of clothes on their skin. We do our best but staffing is an issue. I spend all shift saying 'Doris, boys bedroom' and they turn and wander off.

There are a lot of issues around hospitals, the ones that annoy/enrage me most are the ante-natal with men being noisy and intrusive. Why on earth do people let their partners behave like that? Side issue i know.

Also inconsiderate noisy people: they should have more consideration and hospital staff should have fewer scruples about telling them to STFU

Mixed wards? if i have to but i want separate bathroom/toilets. I prefer single sex bays. But - transwomen can go in with men surely? because that is then mixed men and women? problem solved.

Labour Manifesto, 1997. You may remember reading this at the time. Thick red pamphlet as I remember.

The manifesto does not waste words explaining why the party thinks this is a commitment that should encourage you, the voter of 1997, to vote for Labour, unlike other commitments made concerning the NHS. Because Everyone Knew Why We Didn't Want Mixed Sex Wards Any More.

extract

Hospitals will retain their autonomy over day-to-day administrative functions, but, as part of the NHS, they will be required to meet high-quality standards in the provision of care. Management will be held to account for performance levels. Boards will become more representative of the local communities they serve. A new patients' charter will concentrate on the quality and success of treatment. The Tories' so-called 'Efficiency Index' counts the number of patient 'episodes', not the quality or success of treatment. With Labour, the measure will be quality of outcome, itself an incentive for effectiveness. As part of our concern to ensure quality, we will work towards the elimination of mixed-sex wards.

labour-party.org.uk/manifestos/1997/1997-labour-manifesto.shtml

The wording is single sex wards not single gender so it is impossible to change your sex whatever gender you want to call yourself so yes trans should be in the ward for their sex. If they don’t want that they can go private rather than women being told if they don’t want men to be in the bed opposite they should go private.
It is always the argument if a woman doesn’t like it she should shut up and pay for what she wants. No one ever tells the trans that if they don’t like it they should shut up and lump it or go private. Why do their rights trump mine?

This has been a most interesting thread. I'm glad I started it. Having had the good fortune not to be in hospital recently, or had a relative there, I wasn't thinking about bays, which are obviously the key unit here, not ward, as I said in my title and OP. The point still stands, though - a large majority of those who've voted and commented prefer not to be accommodated in close proximity to the opposite sex as an inpatient in hospital.

As I recall, decades ago, Health Ministers trying to cut the NHS budget insisted that hospitals should be aiming for as close to 100% occupancy as they could get and any hospital with spare capacity was failing. This was in spite of the obvious need to keep some spare capacity for times of higher demand, e.g. winter flu season, and as we've all seen in the last two years, the once in a generation pandemic the government failed to plan for, or for the rare but devastating events like the London bombings with lots of casualties.

That push to keep all beds filled at all times will be one of the reasons it's very difficult to avoid occasionally having a mixed sex bay. Another will be staff shortages forcing closure of some bays, I'd imagine.

This is a paper analysing the sexual abuse of women in mixed wards from the 1950s to the 1990s.

Women have been objecting for decades. The paper opens with contemporaneous accounts from discharged female patients in the 1970s on why they would advise other women to decline hospital treatment in order to avoid being sexually abused.

academic.oup.com/shm/article/31/4/732/5166746?login=false

Here's a wry quote in there from 1976, from the Chair of the Kingston Richmond & Esher Community Health Council, Mrs van Embden, who commented that wards can no longer even be termed ‘mixed sex’ but ‘asex’. That is to say the geriatric patient is seen not as an old man or an old woman but as a separate and sexless species. … It is presumed to be ‘alright’ to allow men and women over the age of 65 to share sleeping and toilet accommodation on the basis that they are no longer sexually aware

Which was a bloody stupid policy, wasn't it?