To think most women would prefer to be on a single-sex ward as hospital in patients?

[Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g]

This was debated in the House of Lords in the early hours today.

I'm not up to speed on this so I don't know how many single-sex wards there are in the NHS. I know it's been promised again and again but for various reasons, mostly I expect to do with money, it doesn't always happen. Now there's the additional headache of trans-identifying patients to factor in, many of whom won't have made many (or any) changes to their bodies.

My hunch is that most of us (male and female), given the choice, would prefer to be in a single-sex ward when stuck in bed with a flimsy gown on and all sorts of undignified and painful things going on with our bodies.

Am I right?

YABU - who cares, mixed sex is fine
YANBU - yes, I would prefer hospital wards to be single-sex

People believe mixed wards are being "phased out" as that is what successive politicians have told them for at least three decades.

I don’t have an issue with single sex wards, I can see why many patients would prefer them. I don’t think it’s really a safety issue though, it is more about dignity and comfort.

Providing this as a universal model is not going to be simple or cheap. If you want it, are you willing to pay for those changes to be implemented?

There are specific issues with regards to admission wards- these are by definition emergency admissions and not predictable. Bed occupancy in these units is usually near, or more often at, 100%. If you make them 100% single sex you would have to increase bed capacity significantly to ensure enough beds for acute admissions of either sex. That is not going to cheap, or quick, and it’s not necessarily going to be easy to find staff. Not saying it can’t be done, but how will the extra costs for it to be rolled out in every hospital be met? Taking money from existing budgets- this will impact on care, waiting times etc.

Some newer hospitals were designed with this model in mind, many pre-existing units are not and whilst I suspect some could be restructured within the existing hospital others will not.

In general I would say in order to provide single sex wards (as opposed to single sex bays, each with it’s own bathroom, within a mixed sex ward) you would need massive investment in infrastructure and staff. Most wards are arranged by specialty- e.g respiratory, cardiology, general surgery, urology etc- and then there are the acute receiving units (medical and surgical). In order to provide dedicated single sex wards for each speciality you would need to double the number of wards- possibly increasing the number of beds too. Some hospitals have the space, many don’t so you are talking mass rebuilding of hospital's and recruit extra staff to match. The only alternative would be to somehow restructure the existing building to separate the wards in half. This would still be expensive.

Again, I don’t say this as an excuse not to do anything- it can be done, of course it can. But the cost of overhauling existing hospitals and recruiting extra staff is not going to be cheap, quick or easy- the issue is, in my experience, is that people underestimate the costs and complications of making major changes and experience to it to be done NOW without any impact on services. Simply put, unless specific funding were to be allocated, it cannot be done within existing budgets without impact on wider patient care.

@Ereshkigalangcleg

The attack took place a year ago and the woman reported it but when officers contacted the hospital, which has not been named, they were told “that there was no male in the hospital, therefore the rape could not have happened”. '

It's absolutely sickening that people would go to these lengths for their ideological beliefs.

And they maintained that position for a year. Can you imagine? It's unthinkable a Nhs hospital would do that to her. I hope she is able to sue & maybe have Ben Cooper as her barrister.

I am surprised only 94%.

@Proudboomer

The wording is single sex wards not single gender so it is impossible to change your sex whatever gender you want to call yourself so yes trans should be in the ward for their sex. If they don’t want that they can go private rather than women being told if they don’t want men to be in the bed opposite they should go private. It is always the argument if a woman doesn’t like it she should shut up and pay for what she wants. No one ever tells the trans that if they don’t like it they should shut up and lump it or go private. Why do their rights trump mine?

Indeed.

To all the commenters suggesting that it is too difficult or expensive on staff to have strict single sex wards, I think it is a matter of priorities

The NHS are currently investing heavily in the Rainbow Badge scheme. This follows the £millions spent on similar futile initiatives with Stonewall over the years. There are many trusts currently recruiting multiple ‘Diversity & Inclusion’ (or similar) officers on salaries far higher than nursing staff. These schemes have precisely zero clinical benefits.

Many of these ‘Diversity & Inclusion’ projects have had the opposite effect and due to lies and misinformation on the law actually exclude and create division. Trained nurses have been sacked for their views on single sex spaces - another monumental waste of cash. There will also be the court cases for damages from women who have been raped, sexually assaulted or traumatised WHILE IN HOSPITAL due to the policies of placing males on female only wards on their request.

Hospital policy dictates that trans patients take priority in pretty much all respects so their requests for a particular ward are very likely to be honoured first.

So in my view, the money is there to staff and guarantee single sex wards, but there isn’t the will.

Largely thanks to Stonewall creating a climate of fear where speaking out is likely to cost you your job.

I would like them to have extra training in how to treat all patients with dignity, and special understanding of the psychological needs of people who have suffered trauma.

I also strongly disagree with rainbow badge initiatives and Stonewall affiliation. Hospitals should be non partisan and Stonewall is extremely partisan, the idea that the feelings of these people (and it's mostly about trans people) matter more than anyone else is what is driving the idea that women's feelings are unimportant, and promoting women's sex based rights is a hostile act.

@balalake

I am surprised only 94%.

Have you missed the posts of those women declaring that they don’t care either way? Or that they would prefer it to a woman because ‘chatting’? Or they doubt something like a sexual assault would happen?

Sadly, we see this regularly. There are always women who cannot think that others might need it due to complex health and trauma events or religious needs. Or just privacy and dignity. We see people all the time with ‘I haven’t got a problem, so no one else needs this’. Individualism vs collectivism.

So in my view, the money is there to staff and guarantee single sex wards, but there isn’t the will

I wrote a similar post but it must not have posted. I really think you lose your case for expecting people to accept this stuff due to a lack of resources /space/staff/time/money when you waste it on lobby groups.

Even those who have an unaccepting opinion.are entitled to have it. As long as they don't mis treat a patient as a result. Anything that does happen as a result of a protected characteristic can and should be reported as a hate crime. There's little that can't be dealt with under a code of conduct/work place bullying policy etc

There should be no need to waste money and time and energy on non legal, non.medically essential and non relevant paperwork provided by a lobby groups at great expense to the establishment requesting it.

And if there's time to spend doing this optional.and irrelevant paperwork then there's time to I dunno open.a sandwich for that old lady on the end bed with arthritic hands , so thr poor woman can.eat. especially now as the visitors aren't there to do it fir them.

And covid is frankly a dream come true as far as any form.of service provider goes. They now have a green light to be as shit as they like knowing we all now have no choice but to accept it amd be grateful because we now cant expect any better cos covid. And we cant complain because peope died and staff have to be off fir 10 days at a time.

Its been a great cover for the reduction of expectations.

The problem with side rooms is the difficulty observing patients who are acutely unwell, unable to use a buzzer appropriately, high falls risks etc and these patients can require 1:1 nursing - this has a huge impact on staffing levels throughout the hospital. The nhs is under massive strain and these are considerations that staff have to take into consideration.

@jacks11

I don’t have an issue with single sex wards, I can see why many patients would prefer them. I don’t think it’s really a safety issue though, it is more about dignity and comfort.

Providing this as a universal model is not going to be simple or cheap. If you want it, are you willing to pay for those changes to be implemented?

There are specific issues with regards to admission wards- these are by definition emergency admissions and not predictable. Bed occupancy in these units is usually near, or more often at, 100%. If you make them 100% single sex you would have to increase bed capacity significantly to ensure enough beds for acute admissions of either sex. That is not going to cheap, or quick, and it’s not necessarily going to be easy to find staff. Not saying it can’t be done, but how will the extra costs for it to be rolled out in every hospital be met? Taking money from existing budgets- this will impact on care, waiting times etc.

Some newer hospitals were designed with this model in mind, many pre-existing units are not and whilst I suspect some could be restructured within the existing hospital others will not.

In general I would say in order to provide single sex wards (as opposed to single sex bays, each with it’s own bathroom, within a mixed sex ward) you would need massive investment in infrastructure and staff. Most wards are arranged by specialty- e.g respiratory, cardiology, general surgery, urology etc- and then there are the acute receiving units (medical and surgical). In order to provide dedicated single sex wards for each speciality you would need to double the number of wards- possibly increasing the number of beds too. Some hospitals have the space, many don’t so you are talking mass rebuilding of hospital's and recruit extra staff to match. The only alternative would be to somehow restructure the existing building to separate the wards in half. This would still be expensive.

Again, I don’t say this as an excuse not to do anything- it can be done, of course it can. But the cost of overhauling existing hospitals and recruiting extra staff is not going to be cheap, quick or easy- the issue is, in my experience, is that people underestimate the costs and complications of making major changes and experience to it to be done NOW without any impact on services. Simply put, unless specific funding were to be allocated, it cannot be done within existing budgets without impact on wider patient care.

👍 this is the current reality of the NHS infrastructure.

GreMay1

I understand perfectly well, thank you, that the NHS is underfunded and there will be times when single sex cannot be accommodated. This is not the norm.

I also understand that the NHS supports the rainbow scheme which puts the feelings of trans identifying men over those of women's needs to protect their dignity and safety.

That is what I object to. This system is deeply sexist as it put male wants above the needs of women.

I'd prefer to be on a single sex ward, but I have no issue sharing with trans women if that's what you're asking? I've only had one stay in hospital (bar the post natal ward) and it was all female.

I'd prefer to be on a single sex ward, but I have no issue sharing with trans women if that's what you're asking?

That's a mixed sex ward.

YANBU to think that most women would prefer it.

I think I personally would be OK with it, whether cis men or trans women. TBH I think if I was ill enough to be in hospital then the sex of the other patients would not be high on my list of worries. But I respect others' right to choose differently.

I'd prefer to be on a single sex ward, but I have no issue sharing with trans women if that's what you're asking?

What is a transwoman to you? Any notion they have to do anything but provide an unverifiable verbal declaration is considered transphobic .

The better question is whether most women would prioritise single-sex wards over better healthcare. Single-sex wards are very easy to provide but they're less efficient and therefore consume resources that could be spent elsewhere.

As framed the question isn't very useful. We'd need to know what is being given up to guarantee single-sex provision.

Yes I would rather be on a female only ward. I'd be unsettled to be on a ward with blokes when I'm vulnerable/after surgery.

Im not really bothered about trans women being on female wards. They'd possibly be at risk in male wards and there's not just a separate ward people can go on who don't fit 100% in either sexed ward.

Im not really bothered about trans women being on female wards.

I don't really understand this distinction, if you have a problem with males being around when you are vulnerable. All I can think is that you don't know how broad a category "trans" is and how little gatekeeping there is.

What is a transwoman to you? Any notion they have to do anything but provide an unverifiable verbal declaration is considered transphobic .

This.

As pp have evidenced, single sex wards not some request that is considered weird and unreasonable by the majority of the population, whatever the issues of actually implementing them. It was a manifesto commitment for decades across parties.

"Personally I don’t care, in that I don’t really want any strangers seeing my body and what not, regardless of them being male or female."

I agree

I trained as a nurse from 1979-82 and all the Nightingale wards in that city were single sex, though in the more modern hospital, they were mixed but, as they were not Nightinglae wards, and mainly comprised of 4 single rooms and the rest of the wards as 6-bedders, the sexes were still kept separate and rightly so IMO!
YANBU so! When people are ill or injured, they are extremely vulnerable and hospitals' duty of care includes maintaining patients' dignity and sexual safety! Few people would be comfortable using bed-pans or commodes, nor being administered suppositories, enemas or pessaries, nor being catheterised, with members of the opposite sex in the surrounding beds anyway!

@Mum2jenny

Personally I would prefer to get treated on a mixed sec ward rather than wait for a single sex ward, but that’s my choice. If you want/need specific options, maybe go private!! The NHS is struggling just now, so ppl need to be aware of this and accept the current practices.

Exactly this. I even known patients ask if they can pay for a private room. It is not the RIU fgs.