BIL charged indecent images. DH's favourite person

[LotinLife]

Need some advice on how to 1. Save our marriage 2. Whilst protecting our young children 3. Living with the fact that you're the only one that suspects.

So, BIL, who I've known for 15+ years and has always been a close relative. Knew him since he was a young teenager. My DH (older by 9+ years) loves him and has quoted on a number of occasions that he is his favourite person and has unconditional love for him. DH of course loves his children and they too are his favourite persons. Anyway, DH and BIL relationship is extremely close and has been commented on how close they are by all members of family and friends.

However, in the past year we were contacted by SS that he was charged with possession of indecent images and that he was to have no unsupervised visits with our children. Of course that came as a shock. SS apologised that in fact they should've contacted us earlier.
BIL hadn't told us anything.

But being a family we wanted to hear both sides (SS didn't go into the details). BIL broke down to DH via call and said that there was a couple of files to believed were found and he had no awareness of them because he had a large amount of neutral pornography all together. Now at the time I accepted this answer, if you had a couple of images out of thousands you could be innocent of not knowing they were there. We gave him the benefit of the doubt. we also understood why he didn't tell us and believe he was working up the courage to do so. I've know him since he was younger so I didn't suspect anything and I'll admit his is he abit of coward especially about tarnishing the image my DH has of him. We continue to back him up and allowed supervised visits.

Until the court charges were brought to light and the extent of the images. This was a year later. A couple of images (BIL said) turned into hundreds (plural) , all different categorises. He didn't me and my DH this was released but it was my FIL who said to us off handed. I read them and my heart fell. I also had questions, what does inaccessible mean etc? So those hundreds of images were inaccessible but a couple weren't and so I did a quick search and took the first answer that inaccessible meant the accused didn't have access to them... Which in our eyes matched the original story: that BIL didn't know they were there and how they got there. Again we believed him yet annoyed again he didn't inform us (so that we as a family could prepare to protect him).....
A month past since that revelation and I felt things didn't start to add up anymore.
2 files is not closer to a thousand files... Does inaccessible really mean that? There was no mention about malicious software to create those images out of thin air.... Surely the investigation team are the best to consider search results and parameters? How does someone even come across these?!
That's when I looked again at what inaccessible means and from definition it's simply that they were deleted or moved... But had left an imprint on the device, which the team can see what the file was and recover it. So unfortunately I dont know for sure if they were viewed before or simply deleted because they were mass deleted..... But again, that does not (in my opinion) equate to the original story.

I have now my suspicions. I worry for my children. I feel BIL, being the baby of the family, is grooming them all and that he could in fact groom my children when he is able (when his sentence is up/lifted).

My DH, I love him, but I have strong belief he will never believe my suspicions and quite frankly believe BIL is no threat.

I'm stuck in the position that it really is me against his family and he'll choose his family.

I've accepted that I may never convince him but then how can I ensure that BIL is not able to be a threat? If I divorce can I demand full custody to ensure they can not see BIL without supervision? Would that be guaranteed? Or should I maintain the marriage (which honestly was fine before this massive upheaval) but be that always vigilant hovering mother and manipulate events so that BIL is never alone with the children without offend DH. I know I would like to have the cut all ties off, but am I doing that to spite my face or, although more stressful and long term, be the one in control... Keep your friends close keep your enemies closer phrase comes to mind.

Still awaiting on BIL final sentence but if he's still allowed supervised visits am I able to anonymously ask SS to apply stricter rules without DH knowing so I can at least not have to start this vigilante/passive aggressive action to block BIL interaction immediately?

You sound a bit naive to be honest. If social services are alerting you then it's something very serious. They don't just think oh let's ring Marge because her BIL has a couple of porn images that were inaccessible to him 😮🤷‍♀️

[quote RedWingBoots]@Lovelteers That's not unconditional love. If your sister's happiness depending on being around your children and you refused to allow it because she was a known abuser of children, then your love for your sister isn't unconditional.[/quote]
Unconditional. love just means you'll love them no matter what, not that you'll let them to have everything they want. I love my children unconditionally. Heaven forbid one did commit a similar crime, I'd still love them but I'd hate that part of them.. And I'd never let them have access to any children.

Hi @LotinLife

I’m so sorry this is happening to your family.

A very close family friend of mine - known for 20+ years, since my siblings and I were under 10, as close as you can get - was convicted of possession of indecent images. He minimised, like your BIL has.

It’s only when another friend went with him to the court hearing that the full extent really came home. It wasn’t a few images, it was thousands, of all categories including under 4 year olds. The charges also included creation of images. The mutual friend described that day as the worst of his life, as the charge list was so horrifying. The family friend had not disclosed to us anywhere near the extent.

SS presumably won’t give you the full charge sheet, but I would be wary: it’s likely BIL is still minimising. Sex offenders very, very often do.

It is likely your DH will be asked to do a character reference or even a victim impact statement. This could be requested by your BIL or by the prosecution. As he is close to his brother, it doesn’t seem unlikely he would ask.

I think that’s where you can see your DH’s position clearly: does he too minimise, or does he reveal how shattering the revelations are and the fear you as a couple have for your children? If not, then I think your marriage is in serious trouble and I would tell SS about your concerns that BIL would be allowed access to the kids.

If you can, I’d go to the hearing or see if a trusted friend or relative can. Transcripts are usually not made available and certainly not fast.

Again, I’m so sorry. I felt grief for my relationship with this man who I had been so close to and who had betrayed my trust and that of my siblings and parents even though he never laid a finger on any of us. I can only imagine how much worse it is when your husband is in such deep denial.

You do know what indecent images of children are don't you? It's actual real life pictures of real life children being raped. Someone's child being raped on camera and your BIL is downloading that onto his computer.
Your BIL has had an active role in child sexual abuse.

I'm going to be brutally blunt here for your kids sake - this man has been accessing, storing and jacking off to real life pictures of real life children being raped. When he has been doing this he's been walking around highly sexually charged and is at high risk of moving from his involvement being that of watching child rape and abuse to taking it further.

Protect your children NOW. Be open with them. Let them know Uncle Disgusting is not a good person and cannot be trusted and that you and they aren't going to be around him.

I'll spell it out again OP .... Indecent images of children is real life pictures of real life children being hurt, being touched, being made to touch others and rape. It is child abuse.

Your husband and his family need to know you are taking a hard-line on this.

I agree with what another posted suggested ... Look your BIL in the eye and say "I'm disgusted that you have been convicted of such a henious crime. You will never ever get the opportunity to engage in such behaviour anywhere near my children. You will never ever be around my children. You may have convinced others to brush it under the carpet and minimise child abuse. Not me. It is child abuse. You have actively engaged in child abuse. Stay away from me and my children."

@LotinLife

Please have stated that I can go to the hearing. Unfortunately that isn't possible (due to travel). Would there be a way to get the transcript of said hearing? Do I simply ask the court/police?

You can ask the crown court for a CVP (video link) to watch the hearing from home. Get the email address of the court from the net and send them a request with his name and hearing date. Tell them the police have said you can be there - although it's an open court so they don't need to have!

I think you're probably more likely to protect your children from inside your marriage, even if that is immediately at the detriment to your own happiness.

I think my line would be that if I walked away, i would have no actual control of who my children saw when with Ex DH, unless your BIL is behind bars which even in a worst case scenario would only be for a short number of years.

But if you're staying you need to actually protect your children from your BIL and stop them seeing him at all costs. I haven't rtft so I'm sorry if I've missed how old they are but is there an argument to educate them in an age appropriate way to their uncle?

OP have you had a conversation with you’re DC about BIL making any inappropriate touches or anything at any point in the past (before your guard was up from SS ‘supervised visits’ warning)? If they have been abused by him they need relevant counselling and therapy etc.
Also, once you confront DH and give some kind of ultimatum (to stop BIL contact to keep your DC safe), if then DH still chose BIL over you and DC after a very clear and maybe graphic explanation from SS/police of extent of images BIL was watching….I would seriously question and investigate whether DH was not also like your BIL. It would make me question DH character if after knowing clear undeniable truth, why he would WANT to still have contact (even if your DC had no contact), with a NONCE, no matter how close family relationship was?

@Alliswells I actually honestly didn't know that indecent images of children meant that. I feel ridiculously naïve having read your post but I honestly thought they were mostly photos of childrens genitalia. Thank you very much for posting so bluntly!

You do know what indecent images of children are don't you? It's actual real life pictures of real life children being raped. Someone's child being raped on camera and your BIL is downloading that onto his computer. Your BIL has had an active role in child sexual abuse

I think some people forget this because it happens online. But this is the awful, disgusting truth. Those pixels on a screen are real children, who are being horribly abused and traumatised because of your BIL and his ilk.

I've direct experience of your situation. Read my old threads on mumsnet. My husband tried to minimise his brother's problems, my mother in law had a breakdown and the whole family literally threw me off the bus as I refused to engage in their nonsense, and sweep in under the feet. Since no one wanted to talk about it and put in preventative action, despite police having hard evidence, I left my husband with my kids. Police will prosecute when they have a very good chance. It was the easiest decision for me, absolute no brainer to leave that entire family and I've not seen them in over 10 years. My husband has since followed me after seeing the light. And he cut ties with his brother and all his family as well.

So I'm going to share something I NEVER share. When I was little my dad's little brother used to come in my room and abuse me. I told my dad and he was never left alone with me again. No police. No social services. Nothing. My dad personally told his other siblings. They believed he would never hurt his children. Two cousin claim he raped them repeatedly throughout childhood. Another two claim he molested them. That's the people I know about. He is a predator. No one has ever gone to the police. Anyhow, I'm telling you this because you have a duty to protect your children above anything else. Your husbands love for his brother will not stop BIL preying on your children. Allowing your kids to have a relationship with him is like giving the green light to your kids that you believe he is a safe person. You are putting them in a vulnerable position.

@LotinLife

I've put in a request to the court/police for the details of the case so that I can have at least the evidence first hand rather than through the BIL.

I'll see what they come back with, I may use it to approach DH to help identify the risks.

That's very proactive.

I think that you've had a hard time on here, unfairly tbh.

In your shoes, I think that I'd sit out the trial and see the outcome.

The outcome alone with the Information you receive re the crime, will help you to discuss this in more black and white terms, with less emotion, if solely focussed on the crimes.

I think that quite rightly you're concerned about your children. Separating means you would, definitely not have less control over any potential contact with the bil. And given ohs closeness, he may find that even after time and potential sentence, that his loyalties are divided. So, in many ways, if say that staying together, protects your children more than parting.

Ss may say no contact, but again, it's reliant on your oh and his family sticking to this. That's a heck of a gamble if bils supported by the family.

I'd say, get the facts and don't make any decisions. Right now, don't have bil in your home, make any excuse. If you can't stop oh inviting him, I think that I'd go away, stay with your parents for some emergency or impromptu treat with the children. Not have to go head to head with oh until the facts are in front of you on paper.

Mentioned this to a male friend just now , and said the “BIL ‘s. CP images were so say uploaded by accident.
He replied right away:
“You’d report them immediately if they were sent in error, or maliciously.”
You’d not just let them be there on the device unless you wanted them there.

It is a grim crime.
A man who was abusive to me online suddenly lost his job.
Turned out he is a paedophile, yet was working in a place where items were made for children.

These men are extremely dangerous and absolutely cannot be trusted around children.

Here is my take...after reading everything.

No contact with you children ever.
If your husband doesn't agree with this divorce him.
If you find out that husband has brought the kids around him go to court and get full custody.

Trust and believe I know what you are going through.

My late sister in law never believed that her partner had accessed porn showing sexual images of children. So she allowed him back in the house after his arrest and back in her children's lives.

Then he raped her 7 year old daughter.

Don't let that man near your children ever. Where indecent images of children are concerned it is always a case of no smoke without fire.

If your husband doesn't agree then he needs to be given an ultimatum his kids or his brother. If he chooses his brother then he too should never be allowed near the kids.

These men (and I appreciate there are a small number of women) ruin lives. At nearly 16 my niece still has nightmares, is triggered by certain situations and men who have a certain look. She doesn't trust men she doesn't know and it has coloured her view of her mother and added extra complicated feelings towards her and her death that she is not old enough to have to deal with.

I'd say, get the facts and don't make any decisions.

OP has enough facts to make a decision.

Her BIL is considered a high enough risk to children that social services have recommended that he has no unsupervised access to her children.

Her BIL has a large number of indecent images of children on his computer, photographs or videos of children being sexually abused. Hundreds of them.

Her BIL did not mention any of this until social services contacted OPs family to warn them away from him.

These are enough facts to understand that her dc need ongoing protection from this man.

If it were me I would have a very blunt conversation with my husband and tell him either he supports you in keeping the kids away from the BIL or you leave him and involve social services to ensure the kids are not put at risk while with him.

This applies only to the kids - if he wants to support his brother, visit him (on his own), go to the trial, bring him oranges in prison etc he should go for it. They're still brothers and you're not going between them. Just between BIL and the kids.

Hopefully that will be enough to push him in the right direction as he can still interact with his brother (alone) and won't lose you or the kids.

I'd be a lot more blunt with the in-laws - just say he has lost your trust due to not disclosing the issue and you will therefore follow directions from social services. No ifs or buts and anyone who puts your kids at risk even just once will never get to see the kids until they are 18. End of. Maybe have that conversation without husband present. It might make life easier for him - having you play bad cop will make it easier for him to stick to the rules vs his family. He can say "oh of course I trust BIL but you know her, bee in her bonnet, no getting around it, soz".

Feel for you OP, very difficult. The access to your children is something agreed on by your family - he wouldn’t be able to apply for contact with nieces or nephews. Obviously there are recommendations around his contact with any child right now but actually soon enough there won’t be specific arrangements but equally there will be the expectation that as you know about this you will be responsible parents and keep the kids safe. It actually doesn’t matter if he did/didn’t it matters you are conscious that he could have and so poses a risk - social care are never impressed with anyone’s loyalty to an adult over kids - even if it turns out they were innocent of any allegations.
You need to ensure your husband understands this even if he can’t accept his brother might be a paedophile.
The other thing is that actually supervised access also protects perpetrators as they can’t have false allegations made against them - could you sell it like that as well?
This is just awful and sad for your family - I hope you work through somehow.

@LotinLife

I've put in a request to the court/police for the details of the case so that I can have at least the evidence first hand rather than through the BIL.

I'll see what they come back with, I may use it to approach DH to help identify the risks.

@LotinLife something else to consider and discuss with your DH.

Imagine for a moment your DCs grown up, having had contact with DH's beloved brother. Imagine the questions they'll ask about why their parent(s) allowed contact with someone convicted of these specific crimes, relative or no relative, risk to them personally or not. Has DH not even considered how his children will judge him in years to come, even if their own safety could be 'guaranteed'?

So when the court case is concluded, impress upon DH that he needs to think very carefully. It's not only about risks and it should be a no-brainer as to who he puts first.

*if it were me I would have a very blunt conversation with my husband and tell him either he supports you in keeping the kids away from the BIL or you leave him and involve social services to ensure the kids are not put at risk while with him.

This applies only to the kids - if he wants to support his brother, visit him (on his own), go to the trial, bring him oranges in prison etc he should go for it. They're still brothers and you're not going between them. Just between BIL and the kids.*

This ^

This man has groomed his whole family.

You need to go back to social services and ask for another meeting with them to find out what this case all means

I suspect BIL is glossing over a lot to make himself look innocent and it wouldn’t make it to court without evidence he had searched and viewed. This was no accident.

Then have a chat with your solicitor

If you don’t protect your kids you stand to have social services intervention into your parenting forever which you could not abide.

Also part of me got creeped out by your description of how close him and your hubby are. Often abuse runs in families so maybe you should analyse the rest of the family to see if there is any other risk of grooming under your nose or historical abuse.
Maybe I’m out of line but I don’t think you can rule it out.

Bottom line is your job is to protect your kids

@ClitorisAllsorts

The ‘lesser evil’ is keeping your children safe no matter the consequences. I cannot believe you are questioning this!

Stop being so faux outraged. By divorcing her husband, there is the risk of not being able to control BIL’s access to children during EXH’s contact time. So by not divorcing and having knowledge and control over access is the lesser evil.

If this is genuine it's a terrible situation to be in, although it feels off - like it's a man pretending to be the OP, but then I'm very cynical.
Here's my hunch - if it is real - could DH have abused his younger brother in the past? This might explain why he is so determined to stick by him, in case the whole story comes out, why he is prepared to put his own children at risk, and how BIL became so perverted - the abused becomes the abuser?
There is no way BIL would get near my kids, and no way I would be going along with any of this weirdness without kicking up a stink.