To expect DH to take shared parental leave if he wants a second child

[FeministBadger]

Over the weekend, DH raised the question of when we'd start trying for a second child. DH wants to start trying sooner and I want a bigger gap particularly as I found maternity leave difficult.

I said I'd be happy to have a smaller gap if DH took shared parental leave which he said wouldn't work with his job. However his company is really generous with SPL and he could get full pay for 6 months even if I'd taken 6 months too so the only problem would be the same issues any woman in his role would face. His solution is we could get a nanny.

This has really annoyed me - I accept DH can't share the pregnancy and birth parts but it seems he doesn't want to do anything that could impact on his career even though he is the one wanting a second kid sooner. Aibu to make him taking SPL a requirement for us ttc?

I wouldn't want another child with a man who wouldn't jump at the opportunity to take 6months on full pay to be with his newborn. Who either actually thinks he is so important he cannot be away from work for that time (deluded and arrogant) or unable to challenge the status quo in his company if they are genuinely that backwards (lacking in guts and morals)... If his company is that bad who doesn't he move to somewhere better? Take the 6m off and find a better place. Why would he want to contribute to the success of a misogynist machine??

My DH was a high performer in an engineering company. In his department there were 35 people, of whom exactly zero were women. His VP had actually admitted to him that they don’t hire women “because they’re a liability”. Men whose wives had just given birth would be back in the office 2 days later. They had no parental leave policy beyond what is required by law... and no one ever took that.

When we had our DC1, I took 9 months off and then DH took 3 months when I went back to work. A LOOOOOT of eyebrows were raised and some less than supportive comments were made. But: he developed a thick skin. I earned 3x what he did at the time, and my mat leave top up only covered 4 months, so we were taking a massive financial hit for every additional month I was off. Also, he was excited to be a dad and wanted to have some meaningful time one on one with our DC.

I swear he’s a more competent dad and supportive partner now than most of my friends’ DHs, and I credit his dedicated pat leave to quite a lot of that. I think some studies from Sweden support that.

And - 5 other young dads at work took several weeks or months off when they had kids, and thanked my DH for making them feel like they could.

DH’s direct managers were still super impressed with him and promoted him shortly after he returned from time off with DC1, and again after time off with DC2.

The VP was not impressed. But who cares? This same VP said to all 35 engineers near the end of the first COVID lockdown “stop f**ing babysitting and get back to the office”. DH quit shortly thereafter, as did 20% of the department, and he’s landed a great new job.

All this to say - other men have taken the plunge even when it’s scary, and it’s been worth it to support their partner and develop a bond with their babies!!!

As I said, in order to make it the norm, more men need to stick their necks out. And make HR cases if this then affects their promotion prospects etc

Exactly. The biggest boost for equality in the workplace would be for men to take equal responsibility for child rearing and the domestic mental load. To be equally likely to take extended parental leave, time off in the school holidays, adjust their working day or leave work on time to do pickups rather than hiding at the office until DC are in bed, have to take time off at short notice for sick days etc etc.

Because if men are doing half of it, promotions and opportunities are less likely to go to the ones who can work late, travel, take less time off, etc etc, which is disproportionately men who leave all the child and home responsibilities to their female partners then they're the ones who get ahead and so the cycle continues, because they see the committed/reliable ones as those who are able to put work first more.

I’d be fuming. YANBU.

Companies that pay generous SPL are as rare as hens’ teeth. They only do it because of some level they recognise it’s the right thing to do. I really doubt a company that introduces six month paid leave has a culture that is incompatible with senior men taking it!

If a toxic culture does exist he is part of the problem promoting it. Deeply unattractive.

If he wants a child he helps care for it.

YADNBU at all OP. I struggled massively on maternity leave. It didn’t help that a lot of it was lockdown…but I think it would be similar even in normal times. My head felt completely full yet somehow completely empty at the same time. Even if DH turned round and said he’d take the whole year off it’d still be a no until I’m ready for everything another pregnancy and baby comes with. In your circumstances it be a hard no until DH realises your career/finances/health matter just as much as his. Stand firm, because I can’t even imagine how hard an unplanned 2 under 2 would be.

his company is really generous with SPL and he could get full pay for 6 months

Now you see the cynic in me thinks - yes, the company offers full pay for SPL, but then promotes a culture where no one will take it, so they can look good, and it not cost them a bean.

You're not wrong - he steps up to do his bit so you can re-build your career.

If he wants another child, he needs to accept it will impact his career (something women learned a long time ago!). I would be reluctant to agree to a 2nd child as he might make the right noises and then change his mind.

Serious question though - what's wrong with getting a nanny when the baby is 6 months if you can afford it If?

@UpToMyElbowsInDiapers that is what I would ideally want DH to do. I think he lacks the guts to take a stand against his company and yes, it does impact on my respect for him.

I'm certainly not going to be jumping to ttc any time soon until this question is resolved.

Serious question though - what's wrong with getting a nanny when the baby is 6 months if you can afford it If?

Well see this is where I think I may be being unreasonable because really there isn't anything wrong with it except it's him not wanting to take the same hit that I can't avoid.

Does he take an equal share of jobs that can't be outsourced? For example night wakings with DC, laundry, cooking etc. If he does, then maybe hiring a nanny isn't such a bad idea, if he doesn't then it just smacks of I'll pay someone to do the bits I don't want to do, and if I can't pay someone, my wife will do it for free.

Have you discussed with him the hit your career has taken and how you would like him to make a similar compromise with DC2 so that you can rebuild your career? How he responds to that would also tell you a lot.

@MintyFreshBreath

YABU to make it a requirement for TTC. It seems a bit like you’re cutting your nose off to spite your face tbh, given that you want a baby at some point anyway. You’re a more experienced mum this time so maybe you won’t find it as hard. Also, does he have to take the full 6 months? Do you think you actually want him to take the full 6 months or do you just like the idea of it? Maybe, you should just talk to him and set out your expectations of what he HAS to do if he chooses to only take the bare minimum of leave. That could be anything. Examples I can think of..fair share of night feeds/lie ins/housework. I’m just trying to be devil’s advocate with the questions by the way. Whatever works well for you is best so good luck ❤️

I'm inclined to agree with this. Obviously, if you have a 2nd child then you are the one who has to be pregnant and give birth, but if you didn't enjoy maternity leave with dc1, then don't take so long with dc 2 would seem to be the answer - which you seem to be 100% okay with. But I don't see what you would be gaining by insisting on him taking paternity leave, when he doesn't want to . You've already discovered that not everyone considers looking after a tiny baby 24/7 to be a fun way to spend your life, so I don't understand why you would want to impose it upon someone else who doesn't want to either, when you could go back to work and your little one could go to a childminder, a Nursery or a Nanny could look after them. It comes across as you trying to make a point rather than there being any logic behind it. Many parents love their children with all their heart, but it doesn't mean they want to spend24 hours a day, 7 days a week, 52 weeks a year looking after them, when they have a choice, which you both do.

@FeministBadger

Serious question though - what's wrong with getting a nanny when the baby is 6 months if you can afford it If?

Well see this is where I think I may be being unreasonable because really there isn't anything wrong with it except it's him not wanting to take the same hit that I can't avoid.

I don’t think is unreasonable. It sounds like you want another child and you want them to bond with a parent as their primary carer, not a nanny. And at another level, you want your husband to understand what it’s actually like looking after a child full-time.

I get it, I feel the same. We could get a nanny for a second, but I actually think my partner and I would really benefit from switching roles for a time. There’s been a lot of “you don’t understand what it’s like” from both sides!

But at the same time I am so angry that he can have it all still and that he doesn’t want to share the impact and it doesn’t even occur to him to do so, because obviously maternity leave is for women

I got your point initially, but as I read on it feels like you seem to be blaming your husband for all the inequality in the world and you want to punish him. If it were the case that one of you had to take leave, I would see your point about sharing it, but that isn’t the case, there is the nanny option. Your seem to have the attitude that you didn’t like maternity leave and therefore he should have to do it and you are hoping he will dislike it as much as you did.

I'm certainly not hoping he'd have a miserable time of parental leave but I do think I am feeling aggrieved that he gets the easy option.

I have a lot of thoughts flying around that I'm trying to understand and this thread is really helping. The ones that feel fair are:

• I want him to understand what it is like to be primary parent
• He can get 6 months of full pay when I'd then be on zero pay, or we'd be paying for a nanny
• He is expecting me to take maternity leave at a cost to my career when he is, at a minimum, very reluctant to do the same
• He is the one actively pushing to have a second child sooner

Where I'm probably being unfair is:

• I feel like our lives and his choices are the gender pay gap come to life
• I feel like if men in general don't step up to take SPL nothing is ever going to change
• I'm losing respect for DH for not wanting to be the one to challenge it in his workplace
• I'd already be doing the pretty serious work of growing and birthing the baby so he could take a heavier load

If you really don’t want to have mat leave- not sure it’s fair to force your OH to take it. However - he should surely take SOME PL. maybe a couple of months… to support you?

Then get a nanny… ?
(Assuming you can afford the nanny?)

I admit it would be hard to feel you are in a true partnership if he refuses to take any, and it might put me off too. Is he a hands on parent?

@FeministBadger

Serious question though - what's wrong with getting a nanny when the baby is 6 months if you can afford it If?

Well see this is where I think I may be being unreasonable because really there isn't anything wrong with it except it's him not wanting to take the same hit that I can't avoid.

Take 3 months leave each and then nanny from 6 months?

He's got to be in tech right? Wall to wall male egos with no one possibly being able to manage without them.

The hilarious thing is HR will love him for taking it.

My previous tech firm take up was less than 2%

It's important for him to take a significant chunk of parental leave because:
It will save you money as a family (the nanny will be, what? £3k a month?)
It's good for the baby to be cared for by a parent in their early months
It's good for both of you for him to be the "default parent" for at least a while and cover all the child admin, night wakings etc so you end up being equal parents

Come to think of it, I don’t know anyone who has taken paternal leave beyond about a month…

I think a lot of posters are missing the bit where the OP said that in her last maternity leave her DH left all the decisions and responsibilities to her.

The bigger issue here is not just that he doesn't want to take paternity leave for a second child, it's that he sees child rearing as his wife's responsibility.

OP, even if you somehow get him to agree to take paternity leave, unless he changes this deep rooted belief you are going to find yourself stepping in to take responsibility anyway. How would you feel if he took paternity leave but still left most of the mental load to you? That could very well happen, and if so you might find yourself with a husband on leave who can't be trusted to actually care for two kids properly on his own.

What it boils down to is you probably just shouldn't have a second child with him. He's not prepared to step up

Definitely not unreasonable. My DH takes SPL of 3 months even being a very hands on dad it was an eye opener for him and changed his whole approach to family time and why I wanted a bit of downtime occasionally child free! He suddenly got the 24hr nature of maternity leave!

2 under 2 is ridiculously hard if you want a second then as you say wait. Would he not even go for a compromise of 3 months?

I'm also quite concerned to hear that your company has sidelined you this is completely illegal!

I wouldn’t have a baby with him at all, even when you are feeling more ready yourself. His has literally told you neither you nor your children (present and future) are as important to him as his job. Yes people need to keep a roof over their heads but he would not be out of pocket financially AT ALL. I’m actually shocked. What a rat. He would rather incur 6 months of nanny fees than pitch in. No way. Not now and not ever - not fit to be a father, sorry.

Unless you are going to tell us some massive backstory about how he is within touching distance of making partner at a law firm where partners make £1m a year until they retire I think your husband’s attitude is awful.

When someone shows you who they are - listen!

Sorry OP I’m being a bit strident but I’m just so shocked by this. Most of my male (and female!) friends are professionals earning well in excess of 6 figures at top firms in London - magic circle law firms, the Big 4 etc. They are by definition high flyers whose career really does suffer if they take SPL. But they also ironically work at places where full pay is available for both men and women (I agree with PP the firms are probably hoping their employees don’t take it up!) But without exception all of these men have taken SPL - in many cases for the full 6 months and in many cases for both kids.

They recognise their wives are not handmaidens - there to birth them a baby who they can admire at bathtime and high holidays.

My friend is married to a banker who didn’t take any SPL (on full pay) with either child. She resented it hugely and I’ve lost a lot of respect for her, particularly because after her first baby he was made redundant and it was her (very large) salary and esteemed career holding the fort until he got back on his feet. And yet she had another baby with the prick, because -exactly like your husband - he believed himself and his banking career to be so much more important than her career as a very well respected lawyer at an elite NY litigation boutique.

Imagine having a baby with someone who has spelt out they can take time to parent, but actually they won’t. My Dh has paternity leave available for the first time this baby (dc3) so he’s taking it, there’s no way I’d have a baby with him if he had this option and chose not to do it. He did start to cavill about the best time to start it for his work but I said I too chose the best time for my work- no wait I didn’t have any choice at all. You’ll take the time that works for us like I did, and you can empathise with all the women out there if anyone says anything.
I’m so looking forward to going back to work with Dh home! I can get up in the morning, get me read, and swan out the door, instead of my previous returns to work where you get children up and fed and dressed, try to make sure you aren’t wearing toothpaste and sprint out the door with stress levels skyrocketing. (Dh starts work early, he’s never usually around in the morning at all) I might pour some cereal on the floor as I walk out just to give him the full experience, before I go be professional