Ukranian, welcome! Middleastern, African? Get to back of the bus!

[OldieWordly]

The war in Ukraine is truly horrendous, but so are all the wars happening all around the world. It is happening in Europe, a place this country is geographically and culturally a part of. So we can emphasise more with the Ukranians and hence the outpouring of support.

But it also helps that they are white and look like the majority of this country, and therefore more support is volunteered.

Why do I as a black woman, while feeling great empathy and sorrow, also feel that other asylum seekers also fleeing war and destruction in their home countries, have been relegated to the back of the bus?

Where are the offers of a sponsored home from UK individuals/families and reimbursement of £350 a month? The right to live in the UK for up to 3 years? The right to work, or to immediately access benefits if needed?

Many of you may say, it's not about skin colour, ethnicity etc, it's about humanity. But tell me, why do so many of us black, brown or non white people often have a feeling of being treated subconciously as belonging at the back of the bus? And the welcome given to Ukranian refugees as apposed to those from Syria troubles me greatly.

@TheSillyMastiff

I think people are mixing up the wording.

So if your are a refugee who can never return back home then you must claim asylum to stay in the UK.

This is where it differs for the Ukrainian refugees, everyone including the refugees themselves hope they can return to their homeland. Some may stay obviously but the majority of imagine want to return to their homeland once the aggressor leaves.

So they won't be claiming asylum, they will have a "specialist visa" allowing a "extended stay".

Exactly. It's not mainly because they're white (although there IS an element of that). It's because it's a temporary effort, people can pull together and make a temporary effort.

@Soffit

I don’t have any patience with the unconscious bias wokey cokey. We are all biased regardless of the level of consciousness at play. We have differences between races and between cultures within the same race. We have greater affinities with some groups more than others and it may or may not be due to race, religion or culture. I applied to take in what the OP describes as a brown immigrant. I would not take in a Ukrainian despite having loads of space because even though we may look similar, I don’t feel any affinity with them whatsoever and I did not feel comfortable when I spent time in their country. I think they are xenophobic and anti Semitic and they need to be consistent in only accepting invitations from hosts whom they would not discriminate against in their own country pre-war. This will massively add to how much I respect them in the long run. Of course there is that religious fetish of taking in a racist and reforming them because your faith has made you the better person ( followed by a lot of humble bragging no doubt). That’s not for me either.

I really don't get posts like this? A xenophobe calling an entire country xenophobes? Where are you from? Does this make the entire country that you are from xenophobic?

@Nicholethejewellery

It's because of racism. The way to solve it is to understand the cause of racism, but unfortunately the narrative is always "racist = bad person who shouldn't be engaged with or persuaded to see a different point of view, they must be ignored." Which doesn't solve the problem of them being racist in the first place, it just reinforces their views.

The racism is that migrants from Islamic countries are seen as more of a threat than those from a European country. It's true to say that most migrants from an Islamic country won't commit terrorist acts - a fact ignored by racists - but it's also true that all recent terrorist attacks in this country have either been committed by Islamists, or committed in a response to them.

To discourage people from being racist in the face of what, to them, seems like hard evidence, you need to engage with them and persuade them they are wrong.

There's also another fact to consider, that the further someone has travelled to get here, the more likely they have passed through a safe country along the way. Just as Britain is being criticised for not taking its "fair share" of Ukrainians, other countries often prefer the migrants who arrive on their shores to be passing through rather than seeking to stay. Even France for instance, a so-called civilised country like ours, is complicit in allowing migrants to gather on their northern coastline and take a dangerous boat journey across the channel. The French would rather allow that than prevent them because, in their view, whether the migrants succeed or drown, they're no longer a French problem.

Ironically there is also an element of unconscious racism in the people who think that Britain should be doing more to help people from any conflict or area in difficulty to settle here. That's the idea that we're somehow better than everyone else, that people want to come here because this is the best country and we have a responsibility to protect everyone because we're better than they are. Pretty much everyone who has an opinion on this issue is racist in some degree. Without believing your country is better than others, you won't expect people to want to come to live in it.

This is the most sensible post.

@Soffit

I don’t have any patience with the unconscious bias wokey cokey. We are all biased regardless of the level of consciousness at play. We have differences between races and between cultures within the same race. We have greater affinities with some groups more than others and it may or may not be due to race, religion or culture. I applied to take in what the OP describes as a brown immigrant. I would not take in a Ukrainian despite having loads of space because even though we may look similar, I don’t feel any affinity with them whatsoever and I did not feel comfortable when I spent time in their country. I think they are xenophobic and anti Semitic and they need to be consistent in only accepting invitations from hosts whom they would not discriminate against in their own country pre-war. This will massively add to how much I respect them in the long run. Of course there is that religious fetish of taking in a racist and reforming them because your faith has made you the better person ( followed by a lot of humble bragging no doubt). That’s not for me either.

Unconscious bias is not wokey cokey, it's a fact. We all have it. Some are aware some are not, makes no difference it's still there.

I mean your bias towards the entire population of Ukraine isn't even unconscious, so um congratulations.....🤦🏻‍♀️🙄

@toomanydogsandcats but surely you can see the point - why is the perception that the UK might favour Ukranian refugees over Syrian is evidence of extreme xenophobia and racism, whilst wealthy Gulf states favouring Syrian or Palestinian over Ukranian is not? And not only is it not, but it's a position you won't even consider?

Look we know the reasons .. just look at the difference/ sympathy towards the Ukrainians compared to say Syrians.. both countries attacked by Putin, both had bombs dropped on hospitals with women and children killed, and yet it’s almost considered to acceptable in Syria and totally alien that’s it’s happened in Ukraine!

[quote Ladybyrd]@JanisMoplin I suppose you are right. I see what OP is saying though. We are all prejudiced. 80,000 people are ready to open their homes to white mothers and children, yet there wasn't even a scheme when Russia was using chemical weapons on families in Syria. Or Afghanistan. Because obviously all of those people are radicalised (sarcasm). But then there is the risk that they could be radicalised I suppose. But then so could a Ukrainian. Is it racism, or xenophobia? I do think OP is right. It's so ingrained, we can't even see it anymore. [/quote]
What's stopping the millions of black, Arab or Asian households from opting to host Syrian/Afghanistani/African refugees? Hosting of refugees has happened long before Ukraine, there have always been stories in the news about people happily hosting refugees (they always seem to be white households doing the hosting incidentally, but I suppose they are considered "white saviours" when they do that?).

@lonelyapple I'm not sure anything is stopping them, but at the same time, I didn't see our illustrious "Levelling Up" Minister (what a farce) staging a government initiative to facilitate it either. Or incentivising families and councils with cash payouts.

There is nothing to say the 80,000 families who have come forward are all white either, is there?

As a white woman OP I agree with you and it fucking winds me up to a tune.
Why did nobody give a shit when Putin was blowing up Muslims? Where was the call to help then?
I'm not saying we shouldn't help the Ukrainians but fuck me surely we should try and help everyone and not just the white man.

I'm so sorry that you feel like this OP, I really am, just know that I also see it from your perspective and I'm angry about it too.

@Katya213

Syrian, Afghanistan refugees are offered places in Germany, France etc but they would rather sit at Calais to board a dinghy to the UK…Why?

I keep seeing this - how do you think the Ukrainian refugees are hoping to get to the UK? Teleport from Kyiv? Perhaps use the floo network from a fireplace in Lviv? What’s the difference between a 15 year old Syrian boy travelling here on his own via France and Germany and a mum and toddlers travelling here via Poland? Everyone who claims asylum in the UK arrives via another country, pretty much.

I don't know, xenophobia against Eastern Europeans is very common in the UK. It was Eastern Europeans Gillian Duffy was ranting about, and scaremongering about Romanians and Bulgarians all coming over here en masse the minute they could.

@Soffit If you think all Ukrainians are antisemitic then it might be you who's racist.

Erm, there are black/Asian / Families who live I. This country who do host refugees from Africa / Syria etc… so what’s your point?

@lonelyapple The UK isn’t populated with just white families.. contrary to what you might read in the press non White households have also opened their homes to refugees .. but well done, your comment pretty much rubber stamps the attitude that’s been highlighted by this crisis.

[quote pucelleauxblanchesmains]@Soffit If you think all Ukrainians are antisemitic then it might be you who's racist.[/quote]
I don't think they are. I know that Zelensky is Jewish so it would not be possible upon that basis alone. However, I have spent time living/working in that part of the world for many short periods of time so I do take issue to those who haven't trying to cancel my opinion. I speak enough of a third common language to know what they are actually saying when they are watching sports matches or on public transport to know that racism and antisemitism is completely normal there and nobody will frown upon you for expressing it. Bleeding heart liberalism cannot cancel my lived experience.

It's not bleeding heart liberalism, @Soffit. Bleeding heart liberalism is when you were going to take in a refugee but decided they were probably doing some nasty racist wrongthink so who cares what happens to them.

Also, @soffit, I"m pretty sure you wouldn't like it if I said well, Afghan society oppresses women and there's only one Jew left in the country or a lot of Arab countries have an antisemitism problem. But I guess they aren't white so it's fine.

My point is that those performing the allocation are not going to be able or willing to ask those awkward questions as part of the vetting process. It does not have a place in the process, obviously, given the urgency of the situation.
Therefore, a number of die hard racists and /or anti semites will inevitably end up lodging in homes of people whom they consider to be lesser human than themselves and whom they passionately believe should not be allowed to live in Europe.
It is worse for people like myself than POC because I look similar to the Ukrainians so they could easily have spewed their vitriol before clocking it. When your ancestors were mercilessly displaced from those countries during history, it is messy to confront the problems thrown up by this wave of refugees. There is no Schadenfreude involved, just awkwardness.

@Soffit the same is true of refugees from plenty of other countries. When European countries put in effort to achieve integration of Syrian refugees & address the problem of sexism there was a load of outcry, how could they? But now we're fine with ideological vetting.

[quote pucelleauxblanchesmains]@Soffit the same is true of refugees from plenty of other countries. When European countries put in effort to achieve integration of Syrian refugees & address the problem of sexism there was a load of outcry, how could they? But now we're fine with ideological vetting.[/quote]
I was always passionately in favour of the vetting of all refugees on sexism (or any other) grounds. I haven't changed my stance, personally. Even when I applied to take in a non-white refugee, I was successfully able to specify which factions I would or would not consider as a starting point. It was probably one of the reasons why it never happened in the end because I was intent upon helping somebody from a minority group among them.

Infact, in an ideal world, I would take in a younger, orphaned Ukrainian who had not yet been corrupted by some of the mainstream ideologies. Since nobody would be willing to do the correct sort of vetting, it is not even worth entertaining the idea though.

@Soffit I guess I think if you've been bombed out of your home you shouldn't have to pass an unconscious bias exam to be somewhere safe. But having seen a white South African pontificate on how the Ukrainians are Problematic my patience is really wearing thin.

I was once told I was pretending to be white by a French guy, destroying the white race etc etc. I wouldn't refuse to take in a French refugee if they all got bombed, and I say this knowing how common racist attitudes are in France.

@pucelleauxblanchesmains

I was once told I was pretending to be white by a French guy, destroying the white race etc etc. I wouldn't refuse to take in a French refugee if they all got bombed, and I say this knowing how common racist attitudes are in France.

"knowing how common racist attitudes are in France"

Well , we certainly agree on something!!