To confront a friend who is showy about not having kids?

[fmac2987]

I have a 2 year old DD and am expecting our second in 8 weeks.

I have a friend, who I know really wanted kids and went through a lot of try to have them, IVF etc, but has now decided with her current partner that they don't want children.

Its not like I had it easy. 4 losses followed by IVF and we were lucky enough to be successful with IVF, and even luckier still to be having another. But I am struggling hard with the terrible twos and perinatal depression and she knows it.

Whenever we chat, on whatsapp or whatever she makes a massive point of showing off that she doesn't have any commitments and sends photos of her in the bath with wine, etc etc. Normally I'd be thinking that all this is coming from a place of pain (and it might be) but I feel like its salt in the wound right now.

So I backed away a stopped chatting as much and she's called me out on it by saying she thinks I'm jealous, and I shouldn't avoid her just because she doesn't have children and has a life.

I really don't know how to manage this.

Is it unreasonable to back away from this weird situation?

@Summerfun54321

Moaning about parenting to someone who can’t have kids is never ok. Gloating about a child fee life to someone who has kids is never ok. You’re both in the wrong. They’re just things that should never be said.

They are not comparable.

Why is it only moaning, when you're a parent. But it's gloating when you're child free?

She's trying so hard to convince herself and also be recognised as someone who is happy and content. There is a sense as you get older that you've left life incomplete in someway by not having children, whether you feel it yourself or perceive that others believe it of you.

I think she also doesn't want to be pitied.

I wouldn't confront her, I would tackle it sensitively though and say you know she's happy and content with her lot, and you certainly hope she doesn't feel offended by you talking of your children (don't assume she does) but that you're starting to find her responses dismissive and hurtful.

Don't make a big issue of it, treat it lightly but sincerely.

If you feel at any point you just want to let the friendship quietly drop then do.

I think maybe both of you aren’t doing the other much good at the moment.

Your decision to back away a bit was sensible, I’d just let things slide and if she pushes you to discuss more just say “I’m finding it tough and not feeling as chatty and need some space” and that you are glad she is doing ok.

I would never bombard a friend who had to stop trying to conceive with my parenting troubles UNLESS they invited it.

I wouldn’t see a photo of someone in a bath with a glass of wine as an affront.

And those who are suggesting that the OP rub it in her friend’s face with photos of kids are just utterly thoughtless and cruel.
(And I have two kids).

You don't sound compatible as friends anymore, OP, I'd just stop making arrangements with her and let the friendship tail off.

Some people just can't accept that different life choices suit different people, you don't need to choose the same lifestyle as her to be happy. Although I wonder whether she's really happy, given how she's behaving.

@Thatsplentyjack

I would text back

"I'm not sure if your rudeness is coming from a place of pain. I know what you have been through to try and have a child, or if you are genuinely happy but it feels as though you are trying to make me jealous and its quite upsetting to have someone who is supposed to be a friend dismiss what I'm going through and actively try and make me feel worse.
I'm going to have to pull away from the friendship because I don't think it's doing either of us any good."

THIS ⬆️⬆️⬆️⬆️⬆️⬆️

Sounds like it's coming from a place of pain more than anything.

Her comment about having a life is unreasonable. But I get really frustrated when my SIL compares how busy and complicated her life is with two small children and thinks we couldn't possible understand or be as busy as her.

I've got a teen DC so been through nursery, school runs etc. Also, she chose to have two kids so that's her lookout.

Obviously a defence mechanism. The more people bash and attack, the more jealous they are.

I used to get some really nasty snarky remarks from women who only have boys/sons over the years (as I have DD,) and I NEVER said anything bad about boys....

Turns out (surprise surprise) that they were desperate for a girl.

It's a defence mechanism thing. Tell people you hate something and convince them you don't want it, and they'll hopefully stop asking you/assuming you want it.

I know a young woman right now who has been with her man 11 years (both 32,) and he would never commit, and said he never wanted kids. She originally wanted to get married and have kids, but after 7-8 years with him, she started telling everyone they were happy as they were, and marriage is patriarchal blah blah blah, and no WAY was she getting tied down with kids..... MUGS game it is. Fuck that. No kids for me.... etc...

Then Spring 2021, he proposed to her, at the top of mount Snowdon. Had a ring and everything. She burst into tears, and they got married in October 2021. First baby due mid August. So she DID want it all along. Just pretended otherwise. Just like your friend is doing @fmac2987 Not nice for you though. I'd be telling her to shut up being annoying ,or would be giving her a wide berth.

I think I’d just take the middle ground. Reply to her boastful message that you’re really pleased she’s loving her life, and isn’t it great that you’re both so happy, despite having different lives.

@Susu49

She's trying so hard to convince herself and also be recognised as someone who is happy and content. There is a sense as you get older that you've left life incomplete in someway by not having children, whether you feel it yourself or perceive that others believe it of you.

I think she also doesn't want to be pitied.

This too. As well as jealous, the OP's friend is trying to convince herself she is happy, and is badmouthing the OP to make herself feel better. And YES she doesn't want pity.

If I had a friend who I knew had wanted to have kids but has been unable, she wouldn’t hear a peep from me about struggling with my kids/post natal depression/anything. I feel incredibly sorry for her.

maybe she’s just had a bit of epiphany that life without kids can be great! More and more people are breaking out of the patriarchy and discovering that.

Maybe she had been so socially conditioned for so long she thought as a woman she had to have kids and then it’s so hard when you can’t, when everyone bangs on about how you don’t love until you have kids blah blah.

So maybe she’s had this realisation that actually life is pretty great without kids. It can be quite mind blowing as like I say we are so socially conditioned! I’m sure she’ll settle down and stop sending pics etc soon

@MurmuratingStarling

Obviously a defence mechanism. The more people bash and attack, the more jealous they are.

I used to get some really nasty snarky remarks from women who only have boys/sons over the years (as I have DD,) and I NEVER said anything bad about boys....

Turns out (surprise surprise) that they were desperate for a girl.

It's a defence mechanism thing. Tell people you hate something and convince them you don't want it, and they'll hopefully stop asking you/assuming you want it.

I know a young woman right now who has been with her man 11 years (both 32,) and he would never commit, and said he never wanted kids. She originally wanted to get married and have kids, but after 7-8 years with him, she started telling everyone they were happy as they were, and marriage is patriarchal blah blah blah, and no WAY was she getting tied down with kids..... MUGS game it is. Fuck that. No kids for me.... etc...

Then Spring 2021, he proposed to her, at the top of mount Snowdon. Had a ring and everything. She burst into tears, and they got married in October 2021. First baby due mid August. So she DID want it all along. Just pretended otherwise. Just like your friend is doing @fmac2987 Not nice for you though. I'd be telling her to shut up being annoying ,or would be giving her a wide berth.

@MurmuratingStarling Well no maybe she didn’t “want it all along and was just pretending” Maybe she didn’t want kids then changed her mind? Maybe the pregnancy was an accident and she and her partner decided to follow through with it rather than abort. I hate this view that deep down all women secretly want kids whatever they say

Such a hard situation for both of you.

I guess the reasons are kind of irrelevant. The friendship isn't working at the moment so I would take a step back. You need to protect your own happiness and if having a break (or ending the friendship) will release you from feeling guilt/envy/sadness then that's what you should do.

I would probably just take the high road and reply something like "I'm feeling a bit weird at the moment and need a bit of space. I don't blame you for having a life, in fact I'm glad you're having lots of fun, truly. I'm glad you're in a good place now. But I'm finding things tough at the moment generally and I think I need to take a bit of a break from you as I feel we may be triggering each other with our polar experiences. I wish you all the best and hopefully we can catch up sometime in the future"

All the best OP. For what it's worth, I had a hard time after my first. My second birth/perinatal experience was MUCH better and very healing. I hope the same for you.

@SecretSquirrel111

If I had a friend who I knew had wanted to have kids but has been unable, she wouldn’t hear a peep from me about struggling with my kids/post natal depression/anything. I feel incredibly sorry for her.

Exactly this.

@LuckySantangelo35

maybe she’s just had a bit of epiphany that life without kids can be great! More and more people are breaking out of the patriarchy and discovering that.

Maybe she had been so socially conditioned for so long she thought as a woman she had to have kids and then it’s so hard when you can’t, when everyone bangs on about how you don’t love until you have kids blah blah.

So maybe she’s had this realisation that actually life is pretty great without kids. It can be quite mind blowing as like I say we are so socially conditioned! I’m sure she’ll settle down and stop sending pics etc soon

Yes this. I had that epiphany too, though doubtless some won’t believe me that I am happy now.

You are so right about the conditioning (pronatalism). We are conditioned to want children and also conditioned to believe we will regret it massively if we don’t have them.

I guess another thing could be that by frankly sharing your experiences of just how hard pregnancy, birth and motherhood are its maybe put her off!
And made her realise that having kids isn’t all it’s cracked up to be and that the child free life is actually great.
It’s a possibility 🤷‍♀️

This too. As well as jealous, the OP's friend is trying to convince herself she is happy, and is badmouthing the OP to make herself feel better.

Or she is just doing what she normally does but it’s OP that’s the jealous one as by her own admission she is struggling right now.

You're both insensitive and this is why it helps to have different people to share different things with.

Why can't it be seen as she's just living her life and OP is jealous? rather than her friend must be the jealous one?

Tell her you are jealous right now as your struggling with your mental health and you know you should be incredibly grateful right now for your life but depression is making it hard to be anything but miserable.

@Eims88
Cos so many people have this view that women cannot possible be happy, complete, fulfilled etc if they don’t have kids. It’s bullshit. Some People cannot comprehend that it’s op that’s jealous of her child free friend.

Why are posters presuming such jealousy and spite on OP’s friend’s behalf? For the heinous crime of having a bath and some wine? For sending an innocuous picture to her friend? For not having kids? This is a very weird thread.

@Eims88 - exactly! You said it better than me.

I don't quite think YABU but I get the feeling there's an element of the friend trying to kid herself given she really wanted kids earlier in life and I'm surprised you haven't considered that connection. Either way, probably neither BU, just not in the right places to be as close as you used to be.