To confront a friend who is showy about not having kids?

[fmac2987]

I have a 2 year old DD and am expecting our second in 8 weeks.

I have a friend, who I know really wanted kids and went through a lot of try to have them, IVF etc, but has now decided with her current partner that they don't want children.

Its not like I had it easy. 4 losses followed by IVF and we were lucky enough to be successful with IVF, and even luckier still to be having another. But I am struggling hard with the terrible twos and perinatal depression and she knows it.

Whenever we chat, on whatsapp or whatever she makes a massive point of showing off that she doesn't have any commitments and sends photos of her in the bath with wine, etc etc. Normally I'd be thinking that all this is coming from a place of pain (and it might be) but I feel like its salt in the wound right now.

So I backed away a stopped chatting as much and she's called me out on it by saying she thinks I'm jealous, and I shouldn't avoid her just because she doesn't have children and has a life.

I really don't know how to manage this.

Is it unreasonable to back away from this weird situation?

*seeing her pics even not posts

Op why are you getting no time to yourself? Why can’t you have massages and manicures and stuff like that? What about your daughters father, surely he can look after whilst you do some stuff for you and have me time

You need spoiling! Can you treat yourself to something you will enjoy? It’s sad because it sounds as though you’ve both been through a lot. Maybe I would tell your friend you care about her but that you seem to upset one another at the moment, so you are going to cool things for a bit.

so I replied back to say I'm struggling a bit as you know and I do find it hard to see all these fun things that I would love to do but aren't able to

I'm sorry you're struggling OP but this is the kicker isn't it. You told her your find it hard to see her doing fun things - that she's only able to do because she hasn't been as lucky as you (although I don't see why you can't also relax in a bubble bath, if you have a supportive partner)

She's stuck with making the best of those fun things, while you have what she always wanted and (to her mind) you still aren't happy with them. That must hurt her deeply.

I appreciate it's hard for you to see when you're suffering your own problems, but she's not the unreasonable one here.

I can see it from both your points of view and I really don't think you are good for each other at the moment. You're both struggling, but with the opposite things, so you are inevitably going to make each other feel worse. I'd distance yourself. Maybe you can reach out again to each other in the future but for now I don't think interaction with one another is helpful for either of you.

@LuckySantangelo35

Urgh yes the vitriol displayed towards child free weddings definitely shows the way in which child free people are judged and looked down upon by those with kids

If you don't have children, many of your friends with children infantilise you and see your life as a childish neverending empty waste of time.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/_chat/3590955-Childless-couples

Can't find the thread, but a few months ago a poster actually went as far as to say that she saw adults who hadn't had children as "not proper grownups".

And notice as well how men are never called childless or child free.

I think men who are upfront and open about not wanting to be fathers are judged. They are seen as immature, commitment phobic, shallow.

So, is this a case of here going out of her way to tell you that she’s got it so much better than you, or is this you taking issue with her just sharing her life with you (as friends usually do?), and her responding to that? Because if it’s the latter I can see why she would think you’re jealous tbh. Having a bath is not showing off.

@LuckySantangelo35

And another example of the attitude I’m talking about.

Childless isn’t offensive - neither is child free. However some few people that didn’t have children or want them where so offended by the term childless they say a different word for the same exact expression.
These are the people who will defend the friend no matter what.

I really think you are not understanding how difficult things are for your friend. She is likely grieving constantly for the children she wanted. It's a huge loss and really hard to explain how devastating it is. A glass of wine in a bath really isn't going to me making this better for her.
Obviously you are having a really tough time too and it sounds like things are feeling difficult for you too in a very different way but it's probably really hard for her to hear that right now. It sounds like you are really struggling to communicate well with each other because of where you both are.

Great post @Woolandwonder

Based on the replies the OP absolutely sounds jealous - I find the use of the word "triggering" rather laughable! So the friend says she can't come round because she's going for a manicure so the OP gets all woe is me 🤷🏻‍♀️some friend you really are OP. Sounds like she's been more of a friend to you than the other way around.

I have a friend who makes comments like this sometimes. She will say things like ‘I would never have children because it could ruin my relationship my worst imaginable life would be to become a single mum’ (I’m a single mum). I understand that could be a fear of hers. She also says she doesn’t want to ruin her ‘beautiful vagina’ by having kids and I find it grating because it seems cruel to mock women who have given birth and assume they all look like a train wreck down there.
I say to her often that being a parent is hard but the most rewarding thing ever and perhaps she needs to explore her hyper-focus on body image (ref the vagina comment).
I used to brush this off and think fair enough, each to their own etc but after a while it got under my skin because I felt she needed to perhaps not directly express these opinions to mums who are struggling as it’s just fucking insensitive and very annoying.

@Username500000000000 except the friend hasn't said anything of the sort.

She has stated some photos, of things women with kids can do too. And when op has wanted to make plans has said things like 'I can I am going for a manicure'

Op posts also state she has been very supportive of op and is just mentioned her own life and op finds it 'triggering'

Probably best to take a break from each other. After her calling you out I would have probably said something like, ‘Too right I’m jealous!’ and made it into banter to make her feel better. I think most people with kids crave a child free life at least some of the time, it’s normal and the terrible twos are hard! If you’re really close I would just be very open and honest.

@Username500000000000 Is that genuinely how your friend feels? People would say the same about me I think. I can be vocal when I feel cornered about how great life is without them.

We've actually been TTC unsuccessfully for 18 months but I nobody knows that.

Of course in her case it could genuinely be how she feels, but just know that for some (like the OPs friend and me) it's a shield of nonchalance being worn to protect themselves.

@ImInStealthMode
I’m not sure if it’s truly how she feels, it’s hard to tell.
I think it’s great to live life and I absolutely understand the reasons why some people wouldn’t want kids, I think what has caused friction is how/when she delivers these comments.
My other close friend had just been through a very traumatic birth and had awful injuries and she chose that as the moment to mention the ruined vagina comment which felt uncomfortable.
She’s a lovely person and a true extrovert who enjoys her freedom so perhaps she is happy without children.
I’ve made her aware that the delivery isn’t necessarily too great and she took it on board but still says the odd thing.
I have re read ops post though and it sounds like her friend isn’t being as tactless to be fair.

Congratulation on your pregnancy!
It's hard having gone through IVF and whilst feeling very grateful for your success you are also a normal parent with highs and lows but your friend will not understand that - why would she? I think there are a lot of complex conflicting emotions in your friendship with her. Have you read other women's experiences of not being able to conceive and how hard it is to spend time with pregnant friends? I would back off a bit from her - you are not good for each other atm - time will improve that - I would imagine despite her bravado - she is still grieving the loss of her dream to be a mother and you need support just like any either new parent - you need to able to vent about your low moments. Hope you both get the support and friendship you need elsewhere.

@RobotValkyrie

She's a twat. Get rid. All the backstory is irrelevant. When someone tells you who they are, believe them. Decent people don't act like this.

She's nothing of the sort.

@twinsetandpearl

Based on the replies the OP absolutely sounds jealous - I find the use of the word "triggering" rather laughable! So the friend says she can't come round because she's going for a manicure so the OP gets all woe is me 🤷🏻‍♀️some friend you really are OP. Sounds like she's been more of a friend to you than the other way around.

So much use of this awful assumption that anyone who lives differently is jealous.

Somewhere in between is normality which is where normal people treat their friends with kindness and empathy.

@CounsellorTroi

And notice as well how men are never called childless or child free.

I think men who are upfront and open about not wanting to be fathers are judged. They are seen as immature, commitment phobic, shallow.

Not at all, men get a free pass.

After I read your update, I have changed my mind on this. You are in the "wrong", not your friend. You need to ask your DH or DP to step up. I had severe PND with my DS and DH would give me every Saturday off so I could have a leisurely bath, go out, do a hobby and so on. Many of us manage to be mothers and still have baths or get some time to ourselves, if not as much as before, because we ask for it. At least 30 minutes a day to have a baths should be possible. Please don't be a martyr.

Do you maybe think you are reading too much into it? I can’t see how a pic of someone having a nice bath should be a stance on her being child free? It’s not something I would even make a connection with. I can’t really see what she’s done wrong? I think the issue is more that you don’t feel you can have a bath? I think you have a husband problem rather than a friend problem (she sounds lovely dropping clothes around for you, it must have been difficult for her). Why can’t your husband look after your child whilst you have a bath? I have to say I find it mind boggling that people chose partners that behave so appallingly. Letting me have a bath is the very least my husband did when I was pregnant!!

OP I'd reply to her and say that she's right, you are jealous sometimes because right now you're REALLY struggling. And given your own past you know that might be difficult for her to understand, because you're getting what you wanted. But that just makes it harder in some ways. I might also add that you know she's now chosen to be child-free, but you still don't want to say anything that might make her upset because if her past so you haven't been sharing how mad you've been feeling in the same way you would if it was related to something else. And that you value her so much as a person and friend, you'd never want to upset her.

And then see how she responds. If it's harsh, then step back. If it's got empathy in there - even if a bit pissed off - then you have a way forward. But at least you've put it all out there and won't have any "what ifs".