To confront a friend who is showy about not having kids?

[fmac2987]

I have a 2 year old DD and am expecting our second in 8 weeks.

I have a friend, who I know really wanted kids and went through a lot of try to have them, IVF etc, but has now decided with her current partner that they don't want children.

Its not like I had it easy. 4 losses followed by IVF and we were lucky enough to be successful with IVF, and even luckier still to be having another. But I am struggling hard with the terrible twos and perinatal depression and she knows it.

Whenever we chat, on whatsapp or whatever she makes a massive point of showing off that she doesn't have any commitments and sends photos of her in the bath with wine, etc etc. Normally I'd be thinking that all this is coming from a place of pain (and it might be) but I feel like its salt in the wound right now.

So I backed away a stopped chatting as much and she's called me out on it by saying she thinks I'm jealous, and I shouldn't avoid her just because she doesn't have children and has a life.

I really don't know how to manage this.

Is it unreasonable to back away from this weird situation?

I really think you need to step back from each other until you're both in a better place

OP YANBU and just because she’s in pain doesn’t mean you need to be her emotional punching bag. She’s ended the friendship with her message to you.

One of the biggest lies of motherhood is that you shouldn’t express your struggles for fear of seeming ungrateful or offending those who cannot conceive. Not only do you need to have endless patience as you care for young children, you need to have endless patience with everyone else who might possibly have it worse and remember these struggles when you might think of daring to complain.

@fmac2987

OP YANBU and just because she’s in pain doesn’t mean you need to be her emotional punching bag. She’s ended the friendship with her message to you.

Exactly this!

Back away for your own peace of mind.
🌹

Sorry @fmac2987 but I tnink your update shows this is more on you than your friend. You are triggered by someone going for a manicure. That is not normal.

You have portrayed your friend very badly here. Despite her own pain when you opened up to her she offered to mind your daughter and when you ask about a walk she is factually telling you what she is doing.

I’m currently pregnant via IVF and like you said it’s very common to get depression and success after so much trauma is not straightforward. You don’t have to be grateful but your friend is telling you her ordinary mundane details of a child free life - manicure, massage etc and it’s affecting you a lot more than it should.

Can you contact your midwife about getting some counselling? Best of luck.

@Firefly1987

No. They are. It is you who have the issue with them and are projected it onto them by starting to think they secretly envy you or OP’s friend. The friend here is doing the same with OP.

Explain why the OP said it feels like "salt in the wounds" then?

It feels like a bit of a salt in wound because I don't get any time to myself, and would absolutely love to have a wine in a bath, or to take the anti anxiety medication that would probably help me a lot, but I can do neither, as I'm expecting. Am I jealous? You bet I am.

I miss my old life a lot sometimes, especially when I have really tough days and I get messages back that do feel a bit showy (even though I know they come from deep personal pain).

I did reply back on thread, and sorry for the delay, but the only reason she knew of my struggles was she saw them first hand (unintentionally) when she popped over unexpectedly.

She's a twat. Get rid.
All the backstory is irrelevant. When someone tells you who they are, believe them. Decent people don't act like this.

@fmac2987 there are medications you can take during pregnancy. I would strongly recommend you contact your midwife for help.

@RobotValkyrie

She's a twat. Get rid. All the backstory is irrelevant. When someone tells you who they are, believe them. Decent people don't act like this.

@RobotValkyrie the friend saw her friend was struggling and has offered to mind the op daughter for her despite her inability to have children. When the op asked if she was around for a walk she said she was getting a manicure/ having a bath and this has massively triggered the op. It is not the friends fault.

So all she is doing is sharing some plans she has and sharing her life.

Sounds like she is supportive like having dd. But also has her own life so isn't available if you just want to go for a walk. Which would be the same as if she had kids. Or anything in her life, she can't be available everytime you want her to be.

Seeing someone having a bad day once, then it's never mentioned again probably wouldn't scream 'I have depression and am really struggling'. Or even make someone think they can't talk about their own lives.

Tbh, the more you post the more I think you are projecting negative intentions on to her. Plenty of women, with kids, have massages, have a bath with a drink or manicures.

I have kids and have always had baths and nails done or the odd facial, or dinner with friends etc. My kids are older, so I do lots of things I had less time for when they were younger. Wouldn't occur to me that i shouldn't mention anything I do, to people with younger kids.

I don't know as we're only getting one side of the story. Are you moaning about pregnancy/baby related things and she's lashing out back?

I have great sympathy for her. You can't compare your infertility journey with hers, as you have a child and another on the way. I've been there too. Maybe take some time and space and hope that one day you can become friends again. It doesn't sound like either of you is in a good place for supporting the other at the moment.

Something is very awry for whatever reason. I think that people who do not have children are often really targeted by others, whether knowingly or not. Constant comments about not being able to understand love until you have children, not being fulfilled until you are a parent etc etc. From what you have said, she was not initially childless by choice. Is it possible you have been insensitive before? Not that I think it is ok to make comments like she is, bbut I wonder if she is reacting to something in your shared past.

OP, thanks for clarifying.

From your updates, I think it's clear the issue is not your friend here. Please do speak to your midwife. As you said, it's not unusual for people who have undergone IVF to have depression, and it isnt, but that does not make it ok. Speaking to your midwife about how you feel may help.

Your friend has her own struggles, but right now it seems like she's just living her life and using her time to enjoy herself and treat herself. She's not doing anything wrong. But this is upsetting you. It shouldn't be, but as it is, I do think you'd benefit from speaking to someone. In this case you may just need to be honest with her and say, look you're right, I am jealous, as I'm struggling right now and I am finding things tough so I need to take a step back. This is Absolutely fine to do, but I don't think you can place the blame on her here, it just wouldn't be fair.

@fmac2987

Sorry all, to clarify, we're so aware of her journey and that she had a tough time. As someone who went through miscarriages and IVF I am never showy about my children to people. Especially this friend or any friend I know has had struggles.

My mum and inlaws are generally the only people who would ever get photos, unless it was a friend who showed an active interest.

As for moaning about my children or mental health, I don't tend to do that either. The only reason she knew was because she popped around one day unexpectedly when I was having a particularly tough day and she saw jt for herself. So I opened up because she was there, and asked.

Since then, its been a bit of a mixed bag with her. I'll get offers for her to look after DD, while I take a break, or I'll try and arrange a walk and she'll message back about how she's off for a massage or a manicure or drinking in the bath, triggering for me, yes, but I don't ever send back pictures or comments about my #blessed life.

Am I regretting my choice to have children? Sometimes, not always. Just pregnant, have a toddler and am struggling. Just because I wanted children doesn't mean I'm not allowed to have depression. In fact, depression is common in people who have babies successfully through IVF, because they feel like they have to be grateful and happy all the time, and there isn't room for depression.

Based on this extra info, it sounds like your friend is pretty bang on the money tbh OP. You are jealous of her, to some extent, and you are punishing her for getting on with her no kids life by branding her ‘showy’ and ‘rubbing salt in the wound’ when she’s offered to mind your child so you can have a break. I am really struggling to see what she’s done wrong, other than call you out for your own behaviour to her?

This should be the kind of issue that, if you two are truly friends, you can fix with a bit more open and honest communication. Let her in.
And I say this as someone in fairly similar shoes to your friend. Yes it can be painful hearing about friends lives with children, but they’re my friends and I love them, and if they were struggling & I was somehow, even inadvertently, contributing to that I would want to know.

Its also tough with her. When she found out we were expecting our second (we didn't announce it) she figured out because I wasn't having wine at a BBQ, she went nuts and got all her newborn clothes her sister just finished with and dropped them over, then she started sending me links to double buggies and things I would need, so its hard to read her at times.

Even still, I never proactively share anything with her thats about or even adjacent to children.

But I see the point of some posters, its fair enough to share things about her life, and it's probably not normal to feel triggered by it, but I decided to back away a bit and she noticed I wasn't replying as much, so I replied back to say I'm struggling a bit as you know and I do find it hard to see all these fun things that I would love to do but aren't able to, which is when I got the jealous because she has a life comment.

I adore and care about this friend, which is why I am having trouble with figuring out how best to manage it.

From your updates, it sounds as if neither of you are making the other person happy at the moment so perhaps it's best if you cool the friendship right now. You're saying that you're jealous of her having a manicure, etc.; she may be having little digs at your choices. It's toxic.

Best to leave it for a while and perhaps just exchange the occasional text.

I can see her point. You back away from a very good friend, because you feel jealous of her different lifestyle.

I, imagine, that's quite upsetting too. You essentially are saying 'I don't want to know about your life' and this is after going cold on her. Despite her making a huge effort to be celebrated your oregano and support you.

@fmac2987 perhaps she feels a bit hurt you've stepped away, as from the sounds of it she didn't step away when you were pregnant, and has tried to support you by offering to help with your child, even though I'm sure that's been tough for her and I'm sure she had bad days etc. So she may feel a bit hurt that you're stepping away from her now because she's just living her life, and that could be upsetting. Perhaps the reason for her snappy comment too.

But that's just an assumption, obviously you know her and the situation better than any of us on here.

Going forward, im not really sure what you want from her. I don't think it's reasonable for her to not tell you anything she's been up to, or for you to expect that. So some space is probably best. I think it's hurtful if any friend backs away, especially without a reason, so she has a right to be upset but if it's for the best then it's for the best and you need to stick by it.

I’ve never quite understood why it’s OK for parents to talk about their kids and how precious they are and to share pictures of them all the time depicting the nicer side of parenting, but not OK for someone without kids to talk about all the amazing things they get to do with their freedom and show the nicer side of being child-free. Are people meant to hide the grownup stuff they do in case people with kids get envious?

I find it nauseating when people post copious amounts about their children on social media or whatever, but i mean most people have had the 'freedom' whilst an adult unless they had children as a teen- i don't really get why it would need showcasing. I don't bother to engage but I do raise an eyebrow at the assumption people with children can't do x, y or z when it's pretty standard which has a status with it about wow see what I can do being childfree.

It sounds like she has been a good friend to you despite her own pain. Then YOU pulled away from her because you ARE jealous. But for some reason you think this is her doing?

You manage this situation by getting your own head sorted. Not by taking it out on her.

@Peasock

I’ve never quite understood why it’s OK for parents to talk about their kids and how precious they are and to share pictures of them all the time depicting the nicer side of parenting, but not OK for someone without kids to talk about all the amazing things they get to do with their freedom and show the nicer side of being child-free. Are people meant to hide the grownup stuff they do in case people with kids get envious?

I find it nauseating when people post copious amounts about their children on social media or whatever, but i mean most people have had the 'freedom' whilst an adult unless they had children as a teen- i don't really get why it would need showcasing. I don't bother to engage but I do raise an eyebrow at the assumption people with children can't do x, y or z when it's pretty standard which has a status with it about wow see what I can do being childfree.

Interesting you use the word ‘showcasing’ - they’re literally just sharing what they do with their lives, that just so happen to be free from children. Is there a reason you feel the need to be condescending about that?

I don’t really get why drinking wine in the bath is triggering. I’ve got a small child. She goes to bed at 7 and I can drink wine in the bath all evening long if I so choose misses point of thread

Reading your replies it's clear why she said you're so you do sound very jealous to be honest. Sorry you're having such a hard time. It's not easy

Where is your DH in all this? You say you are jealous as you’ve no time for a manicure or a relaxing bath. Can your DH not take over for a day and you go to the spa or something and take some time for you? Is he pulling his weight at home and with your daughter?

Interesting you use the word ‘showcasing’ - they’re literally just sharing what they do with their lives, that just so happen to be free from children. Is there a reason you feel the need to be condescending about that?

I don't mean people posting about their day to day lives, but people on a particular platform in particular who post specifically stating here's what being childfree is like. Ergo showcasing.

I think your friend has every right to say you're jealous. She noticed you'd backed off and you basically told her you didn't like seeing her posts showing her living/enjoying life. Think you need to apologise and tell her it's you not her!