To think Zelenskyy needs to stop demanding a no fly zone

[WilsonMilson]

The war is awful, it’s heartbreaking to see what is happening in Ukraine. Zelenskyy has been exceptionally brave, but his current rhetoric that ‘until a no fly zone is put in place that every death is on NATO’ is reckless.

A no fly zone means WW3. No one wins then, the whole world burns. He needs to stop blaming us for not getting into what would undoubtedly be a nuclear war with Russia. It is a terrible situation, but implementing a no fly zone would be crazy.

Do you know how many motorways/highways, Russia, the biggest country in the world has?

ONE. Going from Moscow to St. Petersburg.

Putin and his cronies have acted like gangsters and stolen insane amounts from the Russian population while leaving their country undeveloped and un modernized. Their economy is smaller than Italy's.

Putin turned away from modernization and Democracy when initially he moved in that direction.

Ukrainians have voted as a population and demonstrated for years that they want to be seen as part of the West and a member of NATO.

The problems Putin is having with his military in Ukraine is clearly lack of investment and modernization. He has to bring in foreign fighters to do the dirty work, paid mercenaries not volunteers like Ukraine.

Bombing and terrorizing a people to hell is hardly showing you can be trusted not to annex your neighbors is it?

We have to face the fact that Putin has plans and is going to whatever he likes. He isn't reacting to what we do or don't do. Hopefully his own people have enough and take him down.

Interesting that this thread appeared in the hours before Zelenskyy addresses Parliament and is almost certain to make a plea for the No Fly Zone. The last few days have really made me more alert to the possibility of Russian bots everywhere.

There will not be a NATO imposed no-fly zone.

@incognitoforthisone

Zelenskyy is a world leader whose country and people are being obliterated by an appalling, corrupt and quasi-fascist regime. If the Russians reach Kyiv he will almost certainly be murdered. His job is to ask for whatever might save Ukraine, in as vocal and persistent manner as possible, even if he knows it's unlikely to happen.

You, in contrast, are a random person sitting at a computer on a website where people argue about whether you should wear pyjamas in the day time and which type of soap is more hygienic and why their best friend has fallen out with them.

I don't think you're really in a position to be pontificating on what Zelenskyy should or shouldn't be asking for, are you? Perhaps come back when you've been the leader of a country on the brink of a genocide.

Nothing to add tbh - but this with bells on

Op I think you may be betraying your colonial background, as in how dare an independent country which 'we' don't like fight for its survival. Yes, what the hell, let them die, let Russia win.... Have you given any thought to what you are winning? Disgusting attitude, it's a real 'once I'm ok, who cares what happens anyone else' attitude.

Poor analogy.

Yes, she should leave her abuser but should she send him into the home of all her women friends to beat them up too?

@TristramBrandy

She's not sending him to her friends houses. If he goes there, that's on him.

So what is your solution? She should stay in that relationship as once upon a time she said it was forever?

Thanks for all your comments. In many ways, I think I worded my first post badly.

Of course it’s understandable given the horrific situation that Zelenskyy wants only to protect his people.
The wording of his rhetoric I think is unhelpful in that he is actively blaming NATO countries for any deaths that happen, due to our failure to get into WW3, which undoubtedly would only result in catastrophe. I guess he’s out of options though.

I suppose my real AIBU was, are we being unreasonable to refuse to impose a no fly zone. Whatever the case, perhaps I am being unreasonable to expect Zelenskyy to act any other way, but I don’t think I’m being unreasonable to think that we cannot get involved in any aggressive action against Russia here.

@TristramBrandy

How interesting.
I'm reading a book titled "Putin Trolls" and it appears I just encountered one.

Sorry if repeating what's already been said, but I assume this is partly about putting pressure on NATO states to supply more equipment, including aircraft, to the Ukrainian military - e.g. getting Poland to hand over the planes Ukraine seems to have been told it's getting.

I'm surprised he is addressing Parliament.

Surely continuing to liaise with key figures of NATO etc would be the way to go. Addressing Parliament would seem a bit odd wouldn't it or have other presidents done this before when their country has been at war?

Grazka

It's going to be difficult for anyone to argue against the majority if they're going to be called a Putin Troll.

I guess that's how counter argument is shut down by those for whom the addition of two brain cells would make them a button mushroom.

I think op is supporting Russia without saying she r he is supporting Russia. That's it. Nothing else to see here.

I don’t understand how it’s come to this ,I’ve sons who would be forced in to fighting if we lived there .soif I was a government official I would of done anything to avoid sons and husbands having to fight
I’m sorry ,not a popular opinion
But I think the Ukrainian government should of worked with Russia and agreed to what they wanted ,this is not a war they were ever going to win .

@LostMyLastHatfulOfWords

WWIII would mean that all around would be in danger of death - that land would be laid waste - that buildings would be blasted out of recognition... so EXACTLY what is happening in the cities of the Ukraine right now.

To the people there, WWIII has begun.

Our help (with no fly zone - military aid) might help them end it before everyone is dead and everything destroyed.

We are afraid that helping them would bring WWIII to our doorsteps too. We don't want Ukraine to lose - but we don't want our cities and our people to suffer as they are doing.

The first W in WW3 stands for World. This war is currently involving 2, maybe 3 countries, so it’s not a World War. Not even close.

You seem to think a No Fly Zone would bring this to an end sooner, with fewer casualties. Can you imagine hearing in the news that a Russian plane has been shot down? I was a teen in the 80s and that news would bring back my clear memories of the “Protect And Survive” leaflet landing in the doormat. It was chilling.

If Putin drops a nuclear bomb then we’ll all be dead. Einstein was right when he reputedly said he didn’t know what weapons would be used in WW3, but WW4 would be fought with sticks and stones.

The president of Ukraine is doing his job by asking for a No Fly Zone, but it would global suicide if NATO agreed to enforce one.

'But I think the Ukrainian government should of worked with Russia and agreed to what they wanted ,this is not a war they were ever going to win'

Compromise is needed on both sides but it seems a stalemate and I don't think either will give an inch.

Women men and children are dying, civilians are being shell as they try to escape and the cities are being blow to bits. Ukraine desperately needs help... As far as he is concerned he needs to do whatever it takes to protect his country I'm sure we would all do the same in that situation.

I can't help but feel Putin wants a WW3. He's batshit crazy.

YANBU

Those saying if Ukraine doesn't fight to the death, Russia won't be stopped. Russia is asking for Donetsk and Luhansk to be independent states and for Crimea. If I were Zelensky I would be asking for UN to go in (as it has in other places, nearest being re Kosovo, Israel, Cyprus...) while there are negotiations, stopping the death and destruction and the neo nazis from increasing. It was agreed already that once fighting was stopped, D and L would be autonomous so it isn't giving much ground. No way I'd be putting people through hell for that land.

I also think that the west should stop supplying arms and allowing citizens to go and "help" as they are just fanning flames and enabling a war of attrition. I think it is sick to be honest - all those weapons are never going to more than just enough to keep the war going, anything else is ww3. And it is now a breeding ground for lawless neo nazis - attracting their buddies from the west too.

And sanctions, we will soon feel it, normal people who already are at breadline, Russian normal people already feel it, the more it goes on the more Russia retaliates - it isn't working - it is going to drive the world into economic crisis and war.

Who on earth wants that? Where else do they think it is going to end?

Enough is enough - Zelensky should be agreeing to negotiate the issues on the table, all weapons withdrawn from both sides and from all neo nazis, UN goes in while there are talks and while Ukraine is being rebuilt, war crimes examined, neo nazis totally disarmed, civil war in East of Ukraine which has gone on for years totally stopped.

TristramBrandy

Did I touch a nerve?

@GandTfortea

I don’t understand how it’s come to this ,I’ve sons who would be forced in to fighting if we lived there .soif I was a government official I would of done anything to avoid sons and husbands having to fight I’m sorry ,not a popular opinion But I think the Ukrainian government should of worked with Russia and agreed to what they wanted ,this is not a war they were ever going to win .

Yes, because bullies that want another child's toy... once they've got it, they stop being bullies, right? They don't want someone else's toy too?

Just seen your latest post, OP. I'm an academic and a large part of my job is analysing Russian foreign/security policy and the Russia-NATO relationship. We are absolutely not being unreasonable to refuse to impose a no-fly zone - a nuclear conflict is not going to help Ukraine, and once Russia and NATO start shooting at each other (which is what would happen in a NFZ) then this is a possibility in a way it wouldn't be otherwise.

We should, however, IMO, be giving Ukraine all the weapons they can take and tightening sanctions (with a clear path to relaxing them if Putin withdraws).

@GandTfortea

I don’t understand how it’s come to this ,I’ve sons who would be forced in to fighting if we lived there .soif I was a government official I would of done anything to avoid sons and husbands having to fight I’m sorry ,not a popular opinion But I think the Ukrainian government should of worked with Russia and agreed to what they wanted ,this is not a war they were ever going to win .

They should just give up parts of Ukraine? Because Russia wants it? Or the entirety of Ukraine? How much should they be prepared to give up because Russia wants it?

So, lots of previous posters, you think a sovereign independent country should have said to Russia , we won't resist your invasion of our country, we'll do whatever you want, to protect the people living in the uk,? Words fail... Tho I'm sure this attitude is beneficial for Russia and China when considering future military invasions.....

Loving all the new users coming in with "peace and love guys, give russia what they want, then we can all make daisy chains and see what's for tea".

@GandTfortea get a backbone for Gods sake. We all have families not just you

This thread has shocked me. I had no idea people had such an appetite for a nuclear war. And someone saying “better to be vapourised than life like a coward” defies belief.

If we’re all so ready to die, why have we been wearing masks and practising social distancing for the last 2 years?