To think Zelenskyy needs to stop demanding a no fly zone

[WilsonMilson]

The war is awful, it’s heartbreaking to see what is happening in Ukraine. Zelenskyy has been exceptionally brave, but his current rhetoric that ‘until a no fly zone is put in place that every death is on NATO’ is reckless.

A no fly zone means WW3. No one wins then, the whole world burns. He needs to stop blaming us for not getting into what would undoubtedly be a nuclear war with Russia. It is a terrible situation, but implementing a no fly zone would be crazy.

The man is desperate, he knows his are people being injured, starved and raped and killed. 2 million have fled the country, he is doing what any leader would do and beg for help. YABU
Of course if NATO shoot down Russian planes we are in direct war with Russia and the worlds two largest nuclear powers with 90% of weapons between them, the USA and Russia are now in a frightening standoff so YANU
Its horrendous and easy to see both sides.

How can you sit there and say what he shouldn't be asking for? Please. NATO will decide whether or not they do it, but no he should not stop asking, even if the answer is no. I'm sure if your house was being bombed you would want the planes doing the bombing to be banned from flying over you/your family/friends/neighbours/fellow citizens with more bombs.

Setting up a no fly zone isn't as simple as people seem to think it is. To protect your own pilots you have to identify and attack the Russian anti-air defenses. That means killing Russians on the ground. You also have to put search and rescue forces in the area to rescue pilots who have ejected from damaged aircraft. That means Nato troops and helicopters on the ground in Ukraine, who have to be defended from Russian attacks

Exactly.
And where would you put it? You couldn’t possibly have a no fly zone over the whole of Ukraine, it’s bloody huge.

I don’t think he is under any illusion he is going to get a no fly zone, it’s a way to keep the pressure on our leaders to do more, which is exactly what he should be doing.
But I do wish that our press wouldn’t keep talking about it in a serious manner without explaining the incredible logistical issues of imposing one.

A no fly zone is not an easy answer, and wouldn’t necessarily make much difference anyway.

It’s great short hand for ‘do more’ and that’s how it should be taken.

And we definitely should be doing more, starting with taking in more refugees.

So World War 2 started (from memory of history lessons!) when Hitler invaded Poland in 1939. Now we are 2022... A similar dictator to Hitler with similar ideology is invading Ukraine. He has already threatened the western world with serious weaponry and we do not know where he will stop. Ask yourself honestly ..do you think Putin will stop when he captures Ukraine if he has had no real resistance from the West? We will be at world war 3 anyway as soon as his army steps over the border into any one of the next countries but his own. And will we be lamenting that we should have tried to stop him as soon as he began as it would have been potentially easier? Now not only has Ukraine been turned to rubble but which country will be next...Poland... when exactly should we intervene...when it is France? When he is at the white cliffs of Dover? Each country he invades he will say don't try to stop me or I will nuke you...so basically if we don't do anything are you accepting of the new communist rule, going to learn a Russian and lose all your freedoms? Would that still feel like living? Maybe this sounds extreme but I bet people felt like that in world war 2 when Hitler was still a long way off....

There's literally no point engaging with people who spout pro-Kremlin propaganda without even understanding what they are actually saying. Myself and other have been running an informed thread aiming to discuss what is ACTUALLY happening from an informed perspective:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/_chat/4497259-Ukraine-and-Russia-Answering-common-questions-and-issues

Is the fear that a no fly zone would mean Russia targeting NATO countries? If I were Ukrainian I'm pretty sure I'd be offended at the West saying that direct nato involvement would escalate the war. It already has escalated. From Crimea, Donbas etc to far more of Ukraine. Hundreds of dead civilians, An oil depot bombed, nuclear power stations taken over by the Russians, al sorts of other infrastructure bombed. Isn't NATO more powerful than Russia, especially now that some of Russia's military is stuck in Ukrainian mud?

I heard a commentator saying that when a Russian fighter jet went into Turkish airspace it was shot down and Russia didn't retaliate.

You can't blame him for asking, he's becoming increasingly desperate.

We need to increase our efforts with the things that we can help with though.

Didn't NATO say it would protect Ukraine?

The victim blaming on this thread is breathtaking.

*Zelenskyy is a world leader whose country and people are being obliterated by an appalling, corrupt and quasi-fascist regime. If the Russians reach Kyiv he will almost certainly be murdered. His job is to ask for whatever might save Ukraine, in as vocal and persistent manner as possible, even if he knows it's unlikely to happen.

You, in contrast, are a random person sitting at a computer on a website where people argue about whether you should wear pyjamas in the day time and which type of soap is more hygienic and why their best friend has fallen out with them.

I don't think you're really in a position to be pontificating on what Zelenskyy should or shouldn't be asking for, are you? Perhaps come back when you've been the leader of a country on the brink of a genocide.*

Thank you

Face the facts...world war 3 has already begun.

"Ukraine wanted to join, I feel very uncomfortable with the idea that we won't support someone just because they aren't part of our gang. Can you imagine how we'd feel if it was happening in Britain and the EU refused to help because of Brexit?"
EU is not a military alliance. NATO is. We went into Afghanistan because Afghanistan group attacked a NATO ally.

@TristramBrandy

Ok. *@Clarababe*.

I can see you're given to hyperbole and that's fine.

You are obviously prepared to pay the price for Ukraine to join NATO, That's your right. It's my right to say I'm not.

It won't be decided by either of us but, if a Russian plane is shot down, and the consequences for us range from the minor-no fuel and food shortages-to the major having our cities destroyed and lives lost-then you will have the satisfaction of knowing that you think it's worth it.

That will bring you some comfort.

Better be vaporised than live like a coward. You think handing over Ukraine is going to help? Not that it’s our decision anyway. What happens when he moves on to the next ex soviet state. When do you draw the line? Or do you keep ignoring it and hope it never affects you. Like you say we don’t get to decide thank God but I know this, blaming Ukraine is deplorable. Also not understanding that Zelensky is hardly going to be at his best, making irrational demands is to be expected when your country faces annihilation. Have some empathy for the man.

He's right to ask for one - that's his job and it is the best case scenario left for Ukraine in the position they are now in. But I'm sure he was aware he wasn't going to get it when he asked for it. What it does do for him is get a lot of people asking their governments what they are going to do instead - that domestic pressure on other western politicians to help Ukraine is also useful. It makes it harder for the likes of Boris to not help refugees/send aid/provide what weapons they can. In an ideal world it wouldn't be necessary to apply that level of pressure - but then in an ideal world Putin wouldn't be such a power crazed idiot.

@theDudesmummy

The victim blaming on this thread is breathtaking.

Exactly my feeling. That poster as if joining NATO is nothing but a deliberate provocation to Russia and not a defensive move for that country. Talk about putting the cart before the horse.

Of course Zelensky should keep asking for help. Even if it isn't possible he has a duty to his people to keep asking.

This. His primary responsibility is to advocate for the people of Ukraine. Of course he will keep asking.

@kittensinthekitchen

Poor analogy.

Yes, she should leave her abuser but should she send him into the home of all her women friends to beat them up too?

Anyway, I'm in the minority, so I've made my point and there's no point banging on about it so I won't-especially when some fools think anyone who disagrees must be writing from The Kremlin!

. Most people seem to think WW3 is a price worth paying and, if our leaders agree, they will make a no fly zone over Russia with all the consequences that implies. It's out of our hands.

And I am in the camp of Ukraine just being the beginning. If Ukraine is taken over by Russia, in the next years to come who's to say "pro russia" area of other countries won't appear in surrounding countries and it just continues?

It's more than just defending one country. I don't see how or why anyone could look and Vladimir Putin and think this would stop after Ukraine.

Also we made Ukraine give up their nukes with the promise we would defend them in their hour of need if it came to it. Well we are well past the hour of need, they have asked and we are saying sorry no can do, thanks for getting rid of your nukes though which were your deterrent to Russian invasian. We are liars. Putin is saying to other countries look this is what happens if you align yourself with the west a bunch of cowards who will not protect you to save their own skins, come back to mother Russia.

@Clarabee. Just popping back on to say this.

You write:

" BETTER BE VAPOURISED THAN LIVE LIKE A COWARD"

That is astonishing but you seem to speak for the majority.

Ukraine asked to join NATO, despite assurances being given to Russia, when the USSR broke up, that it wouldn't.

Bollocks.

www.politifact.com/factchecks/2022/feb/28/candace-owens/fact-checking-claims-nato-us-broke-agreement-again/

I go back to the 1930s. We allowed hitler to take Czechoslovakia with assurances he would stop there. A year later he was in Poland. Putin is of the same ilk.

[quote TristramBrandy]@kittensinthekitchen

Poor analogy.

Yes, she should leave her abuser but should she send him into the home of all her women friends to beat them up too?

Anyway, I'm in the minority, so I've made my point and there's no point banging on about it so I won't-especially when some fools think anyone who disagrees must be writing from The Kremlin!

. Most people seem to think WW3 is a price worth paying and, if our leaders agree, they will make a no fly zone over Russia with all the consequences that implies. It's out of our hands.[/quote]
It's not as simplistic as that though. There is a rise of authoritarianism spreading from the east and it's a huge problem. If we allow democratic nations to be invaded and to fall to these regimes, where is the line drawn?

It might sound idealistic and starry eyed and hyperbolic to you, but we really do need to defend countries from this. Allowing countries like Russia to monopolise the world overtly like this is also an intensely troubling thought.

I don't see how Ukraine can win this and I dont see how NATO will be able to avoid involvement at some point. It's a terrible situation which the West has blindly allowed to develop over the past 20 years with our politicians, and some of the royals, holding out their hands for any crumbs falling out of the money stolen from the Russian people and laundered into British property by Putin's mates. Every utility sold, all our industries gone to foreign hands. Russia, China, India, etc. Our armed forces run down, navy run down, defences who needs em? And bloody Brexit. Who's that helping? Not us. We have been utterly betrayed by successive politicians. We'd better hope that someone in the Kremlin has the courage to assassinate Putin. Or we'll all be Ukraine and NATO won't have a choice about involvement.

@Clarabe1 absolutely. This is 1938.